Correspondence with Israeli Embassy re Gaza Piracy

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon May 31, 2010 19:16

Sorry Frank Adam,i spent a couple of years travelling in South Africa,Jan '69-Aug '70.Palestine is a Bantustan,except that the Palestians are not actually ethnically a Bantu people.Pretty similar all right.And if SA had succeeded in getting the nukes in time CRH might be raising the barriers out there yet.Boycott is an honourable Irish form of non-aggressive response to aggression.Time to change from a neutered nation to a pro-active neutral one.brian mcgeown should holster that scatter-gun all scumbag bullshit.I'd say there are probably as many decent disgusted Israelis and Jews today as anywhere.Israeli lawyers are down for the courts tomorrow to charge their rogue state with piracy,among other crimes,and Gush Shalom and the refusniks are the real,steady,constant thorn in the Zionist arse,the one constituency that really worries them and they dont seem to be able to shekel into submission.Dont get lazy.There is such a thing as legitimate DISCRIMINATION.Its in the field of ideas,not false ethnic divisions that give us an illusion of moral superiority.Shalom.

by evelyn Fri Aug 28, 2009 14:13

To Mr O Flynn,
We can peacefully demonstrate and come back alive was it?

I was going to bring you up to date with reality by chronologically listing episodes of multiple killings/injuries of Palestinian peaceful protestors. However, I decided just in case your prejudice is so deep you cannot get your head around what is fundamentally wrong with killing unarmed Palestinian civilians/children, for example recently February 2009 - 4 children, five women, 2 men, all holding white flags - to restrict the question to apply to western peaceful protestors. Keep it even simpler, killings of your closest allies US and UK citizens.

We westerners, can peacefully demonstrate and come back alive can we without getting shot in the head at close range or shot in the back? Can we?

Please google: Tom Hurndall (21 years old), Iain John Hook (54 years old), or more recently, probably brain damaged and possibly dying poor Tristan Anderson (37 years old)....

I presume you know that your great state is declaring that it was an ‘act of war’ for Tristan to peacefully demonstrate against the ‘internationally recognised’ illegal building of the wall.

Note: I’m using ‘internationally recognised’ in standard vernacular. You used the term in a fairly non standard form in your response to Raymond Deane when you made the fairly preposterous claim that Gazan waters are not international waters rather they are ‘internationally recognized as Israeli-patrolled waters’. Please inform us as to who aside from yourselves make up this ‘international’ recognition.

by Frank Adam - private citizen Sun Jul 26, 2009 17:25

Ref Frankson and Greg, the South Africans like other people initially judge others by their own experiences. This is natural but can be frequently wrong with regard to phenomena outside that previous experience when the new experience has its own complexities independent of the person making judgement. This is why one should carefully check for fallacies before relying on initial similarity - unless you want to trip down a camouflaged manhole?

by Greg T Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:39

The report is here;
http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Media_Release-378.phtml

by Sean Og Sun Jul 12, 2009 01:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbIQto3KPUM

Ceratinly worth looking at .

Especially for those who have never been there .

by Frankson Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:22

This is a reply to Corkboi's comment of 6th July in which he states :

"To call a country more liberal and tolerant than any of its neighbours,........ an Apartheid state.Just shows the true lack of education some members of the Pro Palestinan (sic) lobby have in Ireland"

The Human Sciences Research Council based in South Africa (so they know a thing or two about apartheid) has just published a report which states categorically that Israel is operating an apartheid system.

I would suggest that Corkboi add to his education by going to their website and reading the report.

by Greg T - IPSC (personal capacity) Wed Jul 08, 2009 18:59

Food for thought;
http://www.alternet.org/rights/140934/right-wing_israel...ages/

by Greg T - IPSC (personal capacity) Wed Jul 08, 2009 17:59

Corkboi in his continued ranting conveniently ignores the fact that there are many Jewish people in favour of a just peace settlement, for example the US based Jewish Voice for Peace ( a non orthodox group);
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/about.shtml

Also Palestinian society is pretty diverse;

The vanguard of Palestinian feminism: Sahar Khalifa at Bethlehem University
http://womensphere.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/the-vanguar...sity/

James Kirchick's "Queers for Palestine?"
http://www.advocate.com/letters_detail_ektid80712.asp

Aswat - Palestinian Gay Women
http://www.astraeafoundation.org/grants/meet-a-grantee/...omen/
http://www.aswatgroup.org/english/

The future of Palestinian Christianity and prospects for justice, peace, and reconciliation
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MDO/is_5_34/ai_...3787/

by Feyadeen Wed Jul 08, 2009 16:21

"Who said she lost her election due to AIPAC.Nothing to do with her crack pot notions.He genuine insulting stance about 9/11"

I notice you don't try to respond to my rebuttal of your earlier claim, merely moving on to come out with some more muck-racking against critics of Israel - hard luck mate, you are not dealing with fools who will believe any lie you come out with. What was "insulting" about McKinney's stand on 9/11? She merely pointed out the fact that the Bush administration had ordered legal agencies to take a step back in their pursuit of Al-Qaeda because those investigations were often leading them onto the trail of members of the Saudi elite which enjoys such close relations with ... the Bush family. Inevitably, this was deliberately distorted by the US media which claimed that McKinney had accused Bush and Cheney of having advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks and allowing them to ahead - she had never said anything of the sort. Greg Palast gives a good account of this sorry episode in his book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

by Ed Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:14

Both of you are partly right:
Nethurey Karta lives both in Mea Shearim & Beith Shemesh. But in Beith Shemesh they are not the original inhabitanats - those are both secular Jews and Modern Orthodox. In recent years Ultra-Orthodox started moving there, regular Charedim as well as Modern Orthodox.. They are very violent, by the way, in reaction to people that don't follow their ways: there were cases of Modern Orthodox girls that were thrown acid at, since they weren't dressed according to the Nethurey Karta code, and busses that were burned down since there wasn't seperation between man & women as Nethurey Karta demand.

by Justin Morahan Wed Jul 08, 2009 01:12

Corkboi says: "And yes isn't it funny, Israel is supposed to be so intolerant.Yet anti Israeli groups within the state can operate freely"

Operate freely?
Here is a description of what happened in Bil'in about twenty hours before you wrote that line, Corkboi.

"Explosions Pierce the Quiet of Bi'lin
On July 7th at 3:30 (a.m.), soldiers disrupted the tranquility of Bi'lin by forcing their way into several houses. Israeli soldiers came with a list of 10 names for arrest . When Palestinian, international, and Israeli activists arrived at the scene they were subjected to violence and intimidation by the Israeli occupation forces.

One activist with the International Solidarity Movement had non-violently blocked the entrance to one of the doors when he was attacked by soldiers, forced to the ground, and subjected to pain compliance. He was then arrested and carried by a group of soldiers into a military jeep.

When activists and community members responded, they were beaten back with batons and forced to dodge a large number of percussion grenades.

Meanwhile, activists tried blocking the jeeps from leaving by erecting makeshift barricades in the street. The Israeli occupation forces responded with a number of percussion grenades and then rammed their jeeps through.

They forced their way up the street and to several other houses. While there, they arrested a young man and issued nine summons to families of youths who were not present. This was done without explanation or warning.

In the process of storming other houses, the soldiers were again confronted by activists and community members who refused to be dispersed even after repeated percussion and flash bang grenade attacks by soldiers. The jeeps had to make an escape through a second set of erected barricades and they exited into the night with their victims inside.

by Sean Og Tue Jul 07, 2009 23:53

Meah Shearim not Beth Shemesh is the district where the 100 or so Neuturea Carta people live in Jerusalem - means for some reason a Thousand Gates - maybe the way to Heaven
living in the Jewish Holy City .

The rest of them live in New York and one in Manchester and a few in London

Beth Shemesh is a thriving town in the mountains half way between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv
and has a mainly modern othodox Jewish population .

Very orthodox Jews are called "Chareidim "
N K are Chareidim but not all Chareidim are NK

by Corkboi Tue Jul 07, 2009 23:26

"in New York the Rabbi's marched to demonstrate their horror "

I find it amazing people within the Pro Palestinan camps.Don't know much about the Jews that support them
And it truely shows the lack of basic knowledge about Judaism.

These so called Rabbi's are actually members of Neturei Karta,Just because they were the tradition Ultra Orthodox Clothes does not make them rabbi's.Lay Ultra Orthodox People also wear these.
There are a few Neturei Karta in London,New York but surprisingly enough.Most live in Jerusalem. In an area called Beit Shemesh ( I recommend if ever in Israel walking through Beit Shemesh.Though cover up modestly and DON'T take any pictures.)

Funnily enough Neturei Katra moved to Jerusalem in the early 19th Century from Hungary and Lithuania to Jerusalem,Funnily enough their actions back then would be called ILLEGAL as they built a new suburb outside the city walls of Jerusalem called Beit Shemesh.

So really the Bunch of Jews in Black hats seen at Pro Palestinan marches are the original Settlers.Which makes them hypocrits.

As for the likes of Naomi Klien and other left wing Jews,Many are not religious or even secularly observant.So they have no belief in the idea they were driven out of Israel thousands of years ago.No belief they will return.

And yes isn't it funny, Israel is supposed to be so intolerant.Yet anti Israeli groups within the state can operate freely.That ranges from Neturei Katra to Arab Israeli's calling for the Destruction of the state.
These people are all engaged in the debate,They hold demonstrations and they only add to the wackiness of that Middle Eastern State.

Apartheid South Africa.Imprissoned anyone who questioned the state.Anyone who challenged the state.Anyone who protested against the state.

Israel is not the same.
To claim it is an Apartheid state.Does show a true lack of education and reflects negatively on the Palestinan Solidarity groups.

by Corkboi Tue Jul 07, 2009 23:12

Are you talking about the Green Party Canidate for the US elections who uses the racist and anti Semitic Black Panthers as security gaurds

Who said she lost her election due to AIPAC.Nothing to do with her crack pot notions.He genuine insulting stance about 9/11
The same women who said 5,000 Prisoners were shot in the Head after Hurricane Kathrina then dumped.(She claimed from a Reliable source) Yet surprising no one with family members in American Prisions seem to be missing that many people.

HMM.Yes what an inspiration she truely is

by Greg T - IPSC (personal capacity) Tue Jul 07, 2009 19:25

'Hasbara' is I think a word that might be used to describe Corkboi's comments, which might be considered hilarious if the situation in that part of the world wasn't so tragic.
If you want an example of just how tolerant the Israel state really is you might do well to read this;
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2009/07/106254.html
(Cynthia McKinney: Letter from an Israeli Jail)

by old codger - pensioner Mon Jul 06, 2009 15:32

To Corkboi.
The uneducated are just as capable of recognising genocide and mass murder as the educated. Just to put you straight education is not intelligence. All honest people would condemn the murder of jews by the natzi's and likewise condemn Israel for the seige and mass murder of the families in Gaza.
There are thousands of Jewish people that have condemned Israel , in New York the Rabbi's marched to demonstrate their horror at what some of their people consider normal, that is to break international laws and to bomb defenceless people with phosphorous and other atrocious weopons.
attacking the people that post on this site will not cleanse your soul.

by Feyadeen Mon Jul 06, 2009 15:14

"There are no buses seperately for Jews and Arabs,No seperate restaurants,Cafes,Universities."

When people refer to an apartheid state, they are referring to the treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories, which are de facto part of the Israeli state and have been since 1967 - in the occupied territories, there is no need for "Jew-only buses" or "Jew-only parks", because the ethnic segregation goes much further - there are "Jew-only" towns and "Jew-only" roads - Palestinians would never get near enough for it to be necessary to put them at the back of the bus or give them their own drinking fountains.

Within pre-1967 Israel, the Palestinian Arabs are a minority and it is therefore not necessary to impose the same restrictions on their activity that were imposed on the black majority in South Africa - they can be allowed run candidates for parliament because their representatives will have no impact whatsover on the balance of power. That didn't stop the Israeli parliament from voting to ban Arab and multi-ethnic parties from running in the recent elections because they dared to protest against the attack on Gaza.

by Corkboi Mon Jul 06, 2009 01:35

*I said North America. I mean North Africa

by Corkboi Mon Jul 06, 2009 01:31

I have read some of the comments here and laughed at how some people flower a few fancy words together and consider themselves educated.

Over 50 per cent of Israeli Citizens are in fact decendants from Jews refugees from Arab and North American Lands.ie Yemen,Morocco.Libya,Tunisia,Egypt and Iraq.

These refugees are never spoken about ,No on ever speaks about their right of return or indeed compensation.

So if Israel has fifty per cent Jews from Arab lands and 20 per cent Arab.That leaves 30 per cent who come from Europe and America.Hardly the overwhelmingly colonalist majority you seem to fasely claim.

In fact add the thousands of Ethiopian Jews,Indian Jews and Oriental Jews and the figures for so called 'WHITE' Jews is probably less than 25 per cent.

As for Apartheid.I am reading Rabble Rouser at the moment.Which Is Desmond Tutu's book.

I have been to both South Africa and Israel.

There are no buses seperately for Jews and Arabs,No seperate restaurants,Cafes,Universities.

Israeli Arabs serve in all areas of Israeli social and politcal life from Politicans who call for the destruction of Israel.To Ambassadors and Supreme Court Judges.

Arabic is an offical language.The Islamic Calender is an offical calender.

Islamic holy sites are all protected by law,As are Jewish and Christian.

Israel is a liberal democracy.The vast majority of Israeli's are secular.Tel Aviv is more liberal than any city I have seen.Where openly gay or lesbian
Couples can walk down the street and kiss and hold hands.

Israel has the most progressive laws for women and homosexuals.

Another little fact for the propaganda teams Israel has taken in 10,000 Black Sudanese both Muslim and Christian.

To call a country more liberal and tolerant than any of its neighbours.A country that would put Ireland to shame for its integration of Immigrants, an Apartheid state.Just shows the true lack of education some members of the Pro Palestinan lobby have in Ireland

What makes it more funny,Is the people who call Israel an Apartheid state.Yet demand a Palestinan state.

Which will be Judenrein (Free of Jews).Which has already seen vast numbers of Christians leave.Quite simply a Palestinan state will be an Apartheid state.A State where if your Jewish or Christian your not welcome.

by TD - Free Palestine Campaign Sun Jul 05, 2009 21:48

Some of the UK FreeGaza 21 detainees are likely to be deported Monday, should arrive to Heathrow 13.30 Monday - at least 3 of the 6 British FreeGaza detainees are being put on a flight to London in the morning, due to arrive at Heathrow at 13.30 p.m.

by M. O' Sun Jul 05, 2009 09:00

Why haven't the IPSC been protesting to Ireland's real foreign minister - Javier Solana? After all he's the one directing our foreign policy - Michael Martin is but the parrotting boy servant.

by Fred Johnston Fri Jul 03, 2009 23:08

It seems clear enough the Israeli ambassador should be summoned by the Irish government to explain the actions of his government or be asked to go. There should be no 'explanatory' features by the Israeli Embassy or their spokesmen in The Irish Times, as appears to be the norm. The reply to Raymond Deane would not be tolerated were it to come from any other country. An apology from the Embassy should be the very least next thing. We are clearly dealing with an administration who believe themselves beyond the law, who can commit acts of piracy and put protestors on trial and expect not to receive the world's condemnation because the US backs them. Piracy, as I understand it, is an international crime. The holding of the relief vessel is a crime. It is time the Irish people said no.

by Sean H Fri Jul 03, 2009 01:20

If I am not mistaken, he also recently wrote a critically acclaimed biography of yer man Redomnd and the Irish National Party. got a fair bit of Radio Coverage about the book too.

Does anyone know if Dermot was actively associated with any of the Pro Israeli groups in this country before being made Press Officer??

by Greg T - IPSC (personal capacity) Thu Jul 02, 2009 18:05

http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2009/07/106229.html
with live feed from radical TV station WBAI-in-Exile;
http://www.livestream.com/wbaix

by Pepe Thu Jul 02, 2009 15:13

Shame I could not make it yesterday, but well done for getting the people out there and once again demonstrate that Palestine is not forgotten. Also, well done Raymond for your original letter and reply to that predictable response by the Propaganda office of the Israeli State. The final comparison with Mugabe shows Israel for what it is: an authoritarian Apartheid state that fantasizes about it being the highest representatives of everything that it is good in the world (well, except for bombing all those "nasty and troublesome" Palestinian children). As usual, you came across clear and convincing.

by Sammy8374 Thu Jul 02, 2009 14:30

Apologies if it is not appropriate to post this here but the Amnesty International report on the war crimes carried out during the Gaza War (Operation Cast Lead) was released today.

Amnesty International report on Operation 'Cast Lead' 0.39 Mb