VOTE NO to Lisbon - Raft on the Liffey Launch

by MichaelY - IAWM/IFPAL Sat Aug 08, 2009 20:54

Saturday evening 20.30
Our proud raft is still there flying the Paletinian flag and comveying our message

by john Sat Aug 08, 2009 21:21

just wanted to write good on you , raising awareness in a creative way,
hopefully people will get the message.

by Raymond Deane - IFPAL Sat Aug 08, 2009 21:48

You people are definitely quite, quite insane. If there were more like you, the world would be much, much saner.
I'm proud to be part of IFPAL, and sorry I'm 1000KM away instead of being down by that river.
Viva Palestina!

by paul o toole Sun Aug 09, 2009 01:22

TV 3, in the morninig ran a survey with 36% for Lisbon 2 and 64% against. Diddnt watch it but heard it.

by Bibakshid - IHRW Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:25

I would like to begin by making reference to your website to avoid any misunderstanding.

On the front page you make a number of points,

And I agree completely with most of them.

However, I have to disagree with you on the position you have taken regarding the Lisbon Treaty. We could get into a discussion about EU, Irish, and International Human Rights Law, and how it can be used to further our aims, and I am open to doing so, but that is not why I am e-mailing now.

I am e-mailing to inform you why I, my fellow Human Rights Law Advocates, and the majority of friends of Palestine support the Lisbon Treaty.

There are many reasons, but there is one that over shadows all the others.

Article 11.4

Not less than one million citizens who are nationals of a significant number of Member States may take the initiative of inviting the European Commission, within the framework of its powers, to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Treaties.

One million signatures.

That is all we need. I tiny number when our numbers across the whole of the EU are considered.

One million signatures.

As soon as Lisbon comes into force those one million signatures shall be delivered, demanding that the EU work for the Human Rights of the Palestinian people. We have already friends in the Parliament who await this, and the extra powers that they will be granted under Lisbon to affect real change in the lives of the Palestinian people.

If we vote No to Lisbon, we are left with Nice, and we will be left in the same situation as we are now, until David Cameron becomes Prime Minister in the UK, and our ability to work together to put an end to this crime is curtailed.

Consider what will happen if Lisbon is rejected.

Consider what we can do as soon as it is passed.

by TD - Irish Friends of Palestine Against Lisbon Sun Aug 09, 2009 13:01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLhXfybD_4o

by TD - IFPAL Sun Aug 09, 2009 13:54

5

by MichaelY - No to Lisbob campaign/ IFPAL Sun Aug 09, 2009 14:33

Our raft was still proudly bobbing on the Liffey at 14.45 this afternoon. Lots of interest, many photographers, plenty of questions. Well done with the pics TD.

Now onto the previous message re: Lisbon

Article 11.4 under Title II 'Provisions on Democratic Principl;es' states :
"Not less than one million citizens who are nationals of a significant number of Member States may take the initiative of inviting the European Commission, within the framework of its powers, to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Treaties."

What does all that mean? The honest answer is that it doesn't mean anything at all.. The terms "not less than", "significant", "may", "initiative", "inviting", "within the framework of its powers", "appropriate", "citizens consider", "required" and "implementing the Treaties" have yet to be given precise meanings. To mne they sound like EU Commission legaleez to give the appearance that something positive is being proposed.

The Article is read by me, and our No to Lisbon Campaign, to mean that no-one would ever go to the effort of collecting signatures (if, indeed, "initiative" is interpreted to mean signatures and not something else). Similar provisions in other countries have actually had the effect of discouraging initiatives because the government, or the Commission in this case, are not bound to act on them, and it quickly becomes apparent that mounting them is utterly futile.

The option of choosing the precise meaning of this Article is transferred out of our hands and into the hands of those who are empowered to interpret its wording. And we know, from experience, how they have acted in the past and are likely to act now.

by Sean Clinton - IFPAL (Irish Friends of Palestine Against Lisbon) Sun Aug 09, 2009 15:10

"As soon as Lisbon comes into force those one million signatures shall be delivered, demanding that the EU work for the Human Rights of the Palestinian people. We have already friends in the Parliament who await this, and the extra powers that they will be granted under Lisbon to affect real change in the lives of the Palestinian people."

Bibakshid - IHRW - International Human Rights Watch ? - is very naïve to think anyone can "demand " that the EU work for the Human RIght so the Palestinian People. EU foreign policy is dominated by Britain, France and Germany where a Zionist lobby ensures EU foreign policy aids and shelters Israel. While Ireland presently has the possibility of blocking EU policy with our veto, Lisbon will allow for the Council to change the manner in which FP is decided from unanimiity to qualified majority vote thus remoiving our veto and giving the larger states even greater contorl of EU foreign policy - which member states "shall" uphold.

That entire section about 1,000,000 people having the power to effect change is a meaningless sop - an insult to the intellegence of the electorate. Even to someone without legal training it is perfectly obvious that the wording is so vauge as to be completely mwenaingless - intentionally so.

Please do explain what these "extra powers" are that your friends in the Parliament so eagerly await post Lisbon.

by Ahmed. Sun Aug 09, 2009 17:27

The ginger group (here- today-gone-tomorrow.) "Irish Friends of Palestine against Lisbon" are trying to latch one political issue onto another political issue.

The Lisbon Treaty has nothing to do with the Middle East issue.

Trying to hoist the suffering of the Palestinian people on to their purely Europaen agnda is not going to do the Palestinians any good at all.

With "Friends" like that we Palestinians do not need enemies.
.

by MichaelY - IAWM/IFPAL Sun Aug 09, 2009 17:45

Dear Ahmed,
With all due respect and a sense that you may be, in fact, who you say you are, I feel I have to respond to your aggressive and provocative message.

(1) IFPAL is made up of a number of activists who have shown their support and solidarity of the Palestinioan people for many many years - some as far back as the '70s. Your 'ginger' and related comments about people you don't know is out of place. To say the least.
(2) You have, like Cowen and McCreavy, obviously not read the Lisbon Treaty. Your comments show you have no understanding of its implications on EU Foreign policy, the recent upgrading of EU/Israel relations, the EU position in the UN when Gaza was obliterated. If you want your political views listened to and respected, please spend a bit of time reading the Treaty or, at least, talking to people who may have read it.
(3) As to your priceless comment about Lisbon being "a European issue" please think of the European along with American armies in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Somalia.....think of those who tell us that the oppression of the Palestinians or the attacks on the people of Lebanon are 'Middle Eastern" issues that shouldn't bother us.
(4) If you have any desire to improve your understanding about Lisbon you could also visit our website www.sayno.ie

I don't find it easy to say Fraternally but I hope you receive my comments in good spirit

by Ahmed. Sun Aug 09, 2009 18:08

"American armies in Iraq."

America is not in the EU.

The fact that the obedient lapdog Tony Blair followed George W. Bush into Iraq has nothing to do with the EU at all.

by MichaelY - IAWM/IFPAL Sun Aug 09, 2009 18:36

Thank you for the more thoughtful reply Ahmed.

We wouldn't have minded if Tony Blair had gone and got himself bundled in Iraq. Unfortunately, he continued to make millions while he sent young working class women and men, Scottish, Welsh and English, and a couple of Irish, who along with countless Iraqis paid and continue to pay the price of that illegal madness with their lives

Afghanistan , dear Ahmed, there we have NATO soldiers along with Americans. We have Irish personnel, we have Swedish, Polish, Finnish, Norwegian, Danish, Italian, Polish, Hungarian and Greek soldiers killing and getting killed.. Somalia - ditto as well as Ethiopians, Eritreans with Israeli involvement.

That's why we in the IAWM are against war. That's why we in IFPAL oppose Lisbon with its European Defence Agency (of which Ireland is a member). And that's why we think the links between war, NATO and Lisbon are inextricable.

That's why our raft with a Palestinian flag is bobbing around still on the Liffey.

by Raymond Deane - IFPAL Sun Aug 09, 2009 18:51

It's remarkable and instructive that defenders of the EU project, like defenders of the Zionist project, choose to push their ideas by adopting phony identities and espousing spurious arguments, like the absurd notion that the "million signatures" gimmick could effect any change in the neo-imperial policies of the EU.

As for "Ahmed", seeking to burnish his image by claiming that the fawning, self-righteous liar Tony Blair has nothing to do with the EU simply won't wash. How come Blair is the spokesperson for the phantasmagorical "International Quartet" that includes the EU (but is really just the US and Israel) if he has nothing to do with the EU? How come he's being seriously spoken of as a future EU President if he has nothing to do with the EU?

In fact, I hope the latter comes to pass. Nothing would unmask the true nature of the EU than its being officially headed by a proven liar with blood on his hands who is a stooge of US neo-conservatism.

As for IFPAL not being friends of the Palestinian people, I doubt that "Ahmed", whether or not he's Palestinian, is really qualified to speak for them. Finally, I wouldn't be so sure that we're a "here today, gone tomorrow" group: for the foreseeable future there will be the need for an organisation that campaigns on issues that the IPSC doesn't want to touch - unless the IPSC some day comes off the fence.

by MichaelY - IAWM/IFPAL Sun Aug 09, 2009 20:28

Our proud raft is still bobbing happily under the hal'penny bridge. The Palestinian flag is still telling passers by how we feel about the zionist state. And it seens Ahmed andf Co. have decided to call it an evening for the moment. See what tomorrow brings.

by Hasbara-Buster - Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall Sun Aug 09, 2009 22:06

MichaelY, seems like the Israelis don't pay overtime to their new black propaganda hirelings: Israel's foreign ministry is reported to be establishing a special undercover team of paid workers whose job it will be to surf the internet 24 hours a day spreading positive news about Israel. Internet-savvy Israeli youngsters, mainly recent graduates and demobilized soldiers with language skills, are being recruited to pose as ordinary surfers while they provide the government's line on the Middle East conflict ... "Our people will not say: 'Hello, I am from the hasbara department of the Israeli foreign ministry and I want to tell you the following.' Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis," he said. "They will speak as net-surfers and as citizens, and will write responses that will look personal but will be based on a prepared list of messages that the foreign ministry developed." See Jonathan Cooke story: Internet users paid to spread Israeli propaganda.

by Ahmed. Mon Aug 10, 2009 01:46

"He continued to make millions while he sent young working class women and men"

Class crap is out of date Michael.
Class is about Karl Marx in the English library.
Class is about Mrs Bucket.
Class is about Faulty Towers.

Class crap only exists in England.

"Class" has nothing to do with the Palestinians or the EU.
.

by MichaelY - IAWM/IFPAL Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:24

10.15 Monday morning

Our proud IFPAL raft with its majestic Palestinian flag is still bobbing around on the Liffey under the ha'penny bridge and attracting lots of interest.

Now on Ahmed,
(1) The subject of this thread is the launching of our raft and, by implication, our position against the Lisbon Treaty re: the forthcoming imposed second referendum on Oct. 2nd.
(2) Supposed 'philosophical' rantings on whether social classes in general or the working class in particular exist written in the wee hours of the morning (under the influence) do not contribute to the specific debate. If you do have any doubts about the reality of working class life in the so-called West or in Ireland in particular if you are based here, go and talk to some of the people waiting in queues outside Social Welfare offices all over the 32 Counties. They'll tell you quick what class they're part of, who is responsible for the crash and who the enemy is. They may even explain in words that you would understand the politics dominant in Lisbon.

So - if you have something relevant to contribute please do.......otherwise don't take precious space because we will not respond.

by Margaret Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:37

Bibakshid says "Consider what will happen if Lisbon is rejected"
Lisbon was rejected by the Irish people or have you forgotten that.
Our Government has signed up to the Aarhus convention but has still not ratifed that.
Human and environmental rights of Irish citizens are not affordable in the courts until
that happens.
With the exception of a few politicians who genuinely care about human rights in
Ireland my message to the others is this,You are a bunch of hypocrites ,ratify the
Aarhus convention then you can talk to us about Europe and a new Treaty to replace
the old dead and buried Lisbon one.

by JJD - JDC Mon Aug 10, 2009 20:03

Good for you..

NO TO LISBON MEANS NO TO LISBON!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38059363467&ref=mf

by MichaelY - IAWM/IFPAL Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:38

Our IFPAL raft was still there twenty minutes ago smiling and bobbing happily under the ha'penny bridge.
72 hours and still going. Worth the effort methinks.
Also delighted that some of the diversionary comments have ceased - truth always wins at the ned .....does it not?

by Mr Man Tue Aug 11, 2009 21:10

Yeah I saw the raft from my office
Called the Waterways office as it was a health & safety hazard
They came pretty sharpish to take care of it, quite impressed actually

by MichaelY - IAWM/IFPAL Tue Aug 11, 2009 22:15

Goodbye raft....goodbye MV IFPAL.......you kept going for over 80 hours - your flag flew proudly and the message passed across to thousands of people.
And you obviously annoyed big time the health and safety hazard 'guardians' of this land.
We will remember you and I am sure you will enjoy a great time in that part of the sky that rafts go to after they're kidnapped.

by TD - IFPAL Tue Aug 11, 2009 23:52

MichaelY, unlike yer man Oliver St. John Gogarty who "enjoyed going through the motions" in the Liffey, MV IFPAL with an aversion to Liffey shite just levitated herself down to salubrious Galway where now, besides the swans in the Claddagh Basin she watches over Democracy.? Well founded rumour has it that she'll be doing a visitation to Sligo and Cork shortly.?

Video to follow.

MV IFPAL to the right of Mairead

by Mr Clean Wed Aug 12, 2009 02:05

"it was a health & safety hazard" : Only to sewer rats down below and the two legged kind up above in offices.?

by TD - IFPAL Wed Aug 12, 2009 05:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4S95rNSjME

by David Jacob Wed Aug 12, 2009 22:53

This is certainly pollution.
I am sure if a company had put a raft on the Liffey .You would object.

I am sure if Fianna Fail put a raft urging a yes Vote on the Liffey.Ye will object.

Quite simply its pollution.I have seen many anarchist flyers and posters.Many stickers stuck to lamp posts urging boycotts etc.
This is all pollution.You don't clean up after yourselves.

Cork city is littered with Anarchist,Anti Lisbon,Anti Health Care cuts,Boycott Israel posters and stickers.

I am not opposed to some of the causes,but Ask youselves.Who pays for the clean up.

The City Council.

Wouldn't the money be better spent on improving green spaces,providing bicycle lanes etc.

by NoAgain - The Anti-Organisation, ABL, Anything But Lisbon Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:24

It seems that An Taoiseach Brian Cowen TD, instead of offering leadership to the people and to the country is this desperate time of Depression in Ireland, has withdrawn from public life.

All he now has to offer the Irish People, it seems, is the Lisbon Treaty Round Two Referendum - Ion an outdated, outmoded and totally irrelevant Lisbon Treaty that was drawn up some years before the current Economic Recession in Ireland was even suspected to be about to occur, at a time when the E.U. itself could not even foresee the coming Crisis that we now suffer and to which the Lisbon Treaty has no answer at all - how could it ?

Cowan & Co see this inherent contradiction in their upcoming Lisbon Referendum Part Two, and thus their low profiles right now - they are virtually in hiding !!!

How can Mr. Cowan now offer an irrelevant Lisbon Treaty in referendum to a people bowed down and suffering, a Treaty that offers us NOTHING AT ALL, no way out of the current Recession - perhaps that is why Mr. Cowan is not to be seen offering leadership as he himself knows that the Lisbon Treaty has nothing at all to offer in the face of Desperate Times in Ireland.

And despite all their Dail complaints and heckling ( which is all they seem good for) the Opposition parties Fine Gael and Labour seem to have nothing at all to offer either.

But this outmoded, outdated and irrelevant Lisbon Treaty does, however, offer a chance to the Irish People - it affords us, the people of Ireland, an unique opportunity to massively vote NO to Lisbon and thus wake up the E.U. to the fact that they must do something now to alleviate the Banker-caused financial Recession, to make effective laws against the speculators and developers who have caused all this present misery and hardship to the people of Ireland, Europe and the world by their reckless gambling in the Stock Exchanges of the world, and to ensure that Stock Exchange Capitalism is finished off and outlawed in the world forever !

( Fianna fail, Fine Gael and Labour , as Gombeen parties, are terrified of any political realignment that rejection of the Lisbon Treaty will cause, thus their empty promises that a yes vote will bring economic and financial aid to Ireland, it won't, a yes vote will not bring a single extra cent to Ireland , they are carrying on a massive bluff, conning, buying and intimidating the people into voting for a continuance of their status quo of Depression ) .

Don't bother to come back, Taoiseach, Ireland does not need outmoded, outdated and irrelevant ' solutions' like The Lisbon Treaty, now thankfully a Thing of the Past - if that is all you have to offer your people, Good Riddance to Lisbon and you !!!

by Javier - Freelance Journalist Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:28

I would like to begin by making reference to your website to avoid any misunderstanding.

On the front page you make a number of points,

And I agree completely with most of them.

However, I have to disagree with you on the position you have taken regarding the Lisbon Treaty. We could get into a discussion about EU, Irish, and International Human Rights Law, and how it can be used to further our aims, and I am open to doing so, but that is not why I am e-mailing now.

I am e-mailing to inform you why I, my fellow Human Rights Law Advocates, and the majority of friends of Palestine support the Lisbon Treaty.

There are many reasons, but there is one that over shadows all the others.

Article 11.4

Not less than one million citizens who are nationals of a significant number of Member States may take the initiative of inviting the European Commission, within the framework of its powers, to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Treaties.

One million signatures.

That is all we need. I tiny number when our numbers across the whole of the EU are considered.

One million signatures.

As soon as Lisbon comes into force those one million signatures shall be delivered, demanding that the EU work for the Human Rights of the Palestinian people. We have already friends in the Parliament who await this, and the extra powers that they will be granted under Lisbon to affect real change in the lives of the Palestinian people.

If we vote No to Lisbon, we are left with Nice, and we will be left in the same situation as we are now, until David Cameron becomes Prime Minister in the UK, and our ability to work together to put an end to this crime is curtailed.

Consider what will happen if Lisbon is rejected.

Consider what we can do as soon as it is passed.

by Javier - Freelance Journalist Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:36

Sorry!

I read the posts in the wrong order and didn't see that you already got the open letter from another person

Sorry for spam.

Yes it is an open letter. I got it from my friends in a human rights group in dcu. I still stand by it because I am one of the 1 million people who will write. If you don't think there are 1 million people in Europe out of 450 million, you need to travel more in Europe especially Spain and Italy!

by FactChecker - Many, but ipsc is the only relevent one right now Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:51

I read that open letter before that javier and bibakshid quoted, and spoke to the person who wrote it.
I agree with it.
Not impressed that rather than repliying to an e-mail you decided to make a personal attack here instead.

Is your position really that untenable?

Now, about the language of the article.

We all know politicians are cowards who follow rather than lead. It is another tool we can use to create the political pressure and momentum needed for change, and I think we should start now!

I don't know how to make a website though :-(

by Michael Gallagher - Photographer Sat Aug 29, 2009 16:40 libertypics at yahoo dot ie

.

Christian, Muslim and Jew - Dublin, 2005. pic © Michael Gallagher - poster free to use. Please credit the pic (where possible) to photographer if used.