On the Lisbon Treaty referendum

by ya wha? Wed Sep 30, 2009 15:46

a spolied vote is like saying I don't like either option, which is valid in an election, if none of the candidates is up to your liking.

Option A

Option B

and I don't like either.... so I spoil the vote...

But when the choice is

CHANGE the way things are to Option A

DON'T take option A

spoiling the vote makes NO sense for anyone opposed to Option A.
Who dreamt this up?

by Alan Davis - International Bolshevik Tendency Wed Sep 30, 2009 15:58 alan at bolshevik dot org

Working people are not being offered the choice of a pro-workers Europe - the choice is between two versions of capitalist rule In Europe - either under the Lisbon Treaty or under the current arrangement.

the best way to register opposition to capitalist rule in Europe is to spoil your ballot in the referendum and more importantly get involved in the fightback against the attacks - which have started without Lisbon and will continue whether the treaty is passed or not.

by Ya wha? Wed Sep 30, 2009 16:13

the best way to register opposition to capitalist rule in Europe is to spoil your ballot in the referendum and more importantly get involved in the fightback against the attacks - which have started without Lisbon and will continue whether the treaty is passed or not.

In what way, would going up, ticking NO delay anyone from getting involved in the fightback against the attacks?

Sure, ticking NO isn't enough, but letting the YES voters have a walk over is counter productive.
It's not 'the lesser of two evils' thinking like weighing up FF v FG.
This is LISBON ... accept or reject.
Rejecting it, makes the fight easier, as it slows down the consolidation of power of those we want to fight against.

I'm voting NO, AGAIN.

by Alan Davis - International Bolshevik Tendency Wed Sep 30, 2009 16:34 alan at bolshevik dot org

It is a question of what the real difference, or not, you think the ratification of Lisbon would mean for the workers' movement.

If we thought that the passing of the Lisbon Treaty represented a qualitative set-back for the workers' movement then we would be for a No (as we were in 2005 regarding the European Constitution - see link below for our argument then) but our assessment is that the passing, or not, of Lisbon in 2009 will make effectively no difference to the workers movement and therefore the "spoil your ballot" position makes the most sense to get that point across.

by DontBeConned Wed Sep 30, 2009 16:45

the YES side realise that more NO than YES voters read indymedia
accordingly, if they can infiltrate sites like this and encourage mass vote spoiling on some daft premise like alans, then the YES side benefits

don't be fooled by this kind of "spoil your vote" ruse. The NO side needs all the votes it can get as it's neck and neck here.

VOTE NO

by Jonah Wed Sep 30, 2009 17:39

As a petty nationalist I've tallied at more counts than I care to think of. I've stood and watched spoiled votes come out. Some are obscene, some not filled out correctly and maybe one out of every hundred spoils I'd see has a political slogan on it (generally anarchist for what it's worth).

Anyone who thinks this is a meaningful form of political protest or thinks the reaction of activists tallying votes is anything other than wry indifference is completely disconnected from the real world and the struggles of real working class people.

If you spoil your vote on Friday I can guarantee you no one will ever know but the tally people and we won't care.

by Alan Davis - International Bolshevik Tendency Wed Sep 30, 2009 22:00 alan at bolshevik dot org

"a spoiled vote is like saying I don't like either option, which is valid in an election, if none of the candidates is up to your liking."

Well in this voting situation neither of the options - a capitalist Europe under the Lisbon Treaty rules or a capitalist Europe under the existing rules - is to my liking.

That is the real choice before us.

The message communists, like the IBT, want to get across is something like "For a workers' Europe - down with capitalist Europe".

In a situation where the outcome of this dispute over how capitalism should be run in Europe will make virtually no difference to the ability of the working class to defend itself against the attacks which rain down on us (and will continue to rain down on us irrespective of the result of this referendum) the best way to highlight that idea of a workers' Europe is the "spoiled ballot" tactic.

by Alan Davis - International Bolshevik Tendency Wed Sep 30, 2009 22:11 alan at bolshevik dot org

Jonah makes a valid point about spoiled ballots not being reported but a "spoil your ballot" perspective is not so much about the actual vote.

We don't think it matters what the result is as our assessment is that the ability of the working class to fight under either of these versions of capitalist Europe are pretty much the same. And given that there is no basis for siding with one lot of capitalists against the other.

What is important is the political discussion and debate around the referendum.

Our "spoil your ballot" tactic means we get to focus on something we think is very important - the class struggle against the bosses.

Of course it is possible to do this with a No vote as well but the reality of the No campaign by the left is that is has got sucked into various nationalist/reformist sidelines that have blunted this message of class struggle.

The WSM are the exception to this but the argument they put forward sounds like it should result in a "spoil your ballot" position to me:

"It is a treaty for the rich, people in Ireland can do a lot better than a choice between the clowns in the Dáil or those in Brussels.

"We oppose the EU's policies of privatisation, militarisation and attacks on workers' conditions but don’t insult people’s intelligence by saying that our current society in Ireland with its severe recession, diabolical public services and corruption is anything better. The major lack of democracy in our lives is not between us and the EU but between the Irish government and us.

"The upcoming Lisbon vote is one of the rare occasions that the people get a direct say. But it’s only a very limited say. We get to choose between either a gombeen republic or an embryonic European state, neither of which makes for an exciting prospect.

"Whichever way the vote goes, there is no indication that either a yes or a no vote will substantially alter the exclusion of the public from major public decisions. That requires a rethinking of the kind of society we want."

by Sharon. - Individual. Fri Oct 02, 2009 20:46

Hi !

If the 'Yes' voters get a majority , when can we expect a re-run ?

Thanks!
Sharon.

"NO!" to Lisbon , June 2008.

"NO!" to Lisbon , October 2009.

by piggyb - citizen Mon Oct 05, 2009 20:13

my opinion is that the germans are slyly trying to do what they wanted in both world wars people be warned . this lisbon treaty has been a german pushed agreement as we have now lost our republic something that people of ireland had fought for for hundreds of years were just sold down the river last friday the 2nd of oct 2009 our history was destroyed in the matter of a few hours by people who did not read our constitution which has been stripped we sold out just for the chance of monitary stability but wake up people we are in a slump and so is the whole world and when the shit hits the fan and there are nazi snigals appearing in your area dont be surprised its your own faults .

by anal-retentive - " a new viral meme is given unto us" Tue Oct 06, 2009 21:12

Isn't it wonderful that the Irish people got it right by changing the result of their last referendum . This is cool, really it is. This is so kosher and real it trickles down your nasal passages like mead.

How many other referenda did the Irish people get wrong the first time?

It's a bit like being a rodent in a human scientist's labyrinth. You've got nothing much to do so you run down the laneway on the right. They give you an electric shock that fries your gonads like a courgette raised on amniopyralites.

So you forget about it. You get over it. You miss your nest and peers and general normal rodent life and rodent things. Then you run down the laneway on the left. They give you dopamiene, diamorphine, a lengthy full body massage & allow that illusory feeling that you too could one of "the rats of NIMH"(*) or at least get on a level with Mrs Frisby.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Frisby_and_the_Rats_o..._NIMH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_NIMH

Ireland wouldn't have had Celtic Tiger choices without Europe, the USA, the peace process, FF, Ahern, little fairies who munch intestinal worms...,

by Seano Fri Oct 09, 2009 19:48

Why would anyone call themselves the Bolshevik Tendency? Even if you think Bolshevism deserves another go surely you'd repackage it as something that doesn't conjure up purges, show trials, gulags, personality cults, and all that crack. Is there a Pol Pot appreciation society out there somewhere, maybe idkillmillionsgivenhalfachance.org?