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Tuesday November 09, 2010 06:16
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20Great to see the sports fans have some politics.
No war but the class war !
another interesting thread on indy dealing with the poppy
https://www.indymedia.ie/article/94848
Yet more poppy debate.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/72933
The "Green Brigade" have been around for years. They are "not sectarian or racist" (snore).
Campbell frequently gets annoyed at Celtic Fans. Pity the Quisling Regime at Celtic Park kowtowed to the likes of him. Wear a White Poppy!
DUP MP Gregory Campbell has accused Glasgow Celtic of not doing enough to stop an anti-poppy protest.
Celtic apologised for banners unfurled by a group styling itself the Green Brigade at half-time during its 9-0 home win over Aberdeen on Saturday.The banners read: "Your deeds would shame all the devils in Hell. Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan. No bloodstained poppy on our Hoops."
Mr Campbell said it was not the first year there had been such protests. "I know that Celtic have apologised and that is right, and that is a good step for them to take," said the East Londonderry (sic) MP.
"I think they need to go further, because it has happened last year and in previous years, and it will happen again next year."
Mr Campbell, who is a fan of Old Firm rivals Glasgow Rangers, said: "All clubs need to stand up and lance this boil and say not only are we going to be passive in this, we are going to actively promote the act of remembrance. These people died so we can all have freedom, even the freedom to insult those who paid the supreme sacrifice. That's the freedom those people laid down their lives for, and I think the very least those people and their relatives could expect is that people would remember that with dignity."
Celtic said in a statement: "The actions of this small minority have no place at Celtic Park.
"We are currently investigating the matter and, clearly, we apologise for any offence caused."
If you want to honour the Black and Tans or the murdering Para's wear a blood poppy. The poppy is a British war symbol that honours the memory of the dead who died in all campaigns fought by the British military, that would include their bloody tours of Ireland.
...in China, where Cameron in touring with his corporate band, the locals have reminded him that the poppy signifies the Opium Wars. These of course have since been refined into the heroin wars which are being pumped from the reclaimed fields of Afghanistan.
Naturally, Cameron has stressed that for the British military it symbolises the heroic stupidity of the uneducated poor who tramped into the trenches for King and Country(excellent movie, btw) and the prospect of escape from the squalor and hunger of their green and pleasant homeland.
James Plunkett's Strumpet City gives a more realistic assessment of the desperation that drove Irish recruitment into the 'heroism' of the aristocrat imperialists Great War(to end all wars)than the current crocodile eulogisings of mainstream mediots.
They aint learning.
Over here the poppy doesn't represent an endorsement of British foreign policy - I didn't support the Iraq war but I'll still wear a poppy to remember those who were killed or injured there.
I can see why this is a sensitive issue in Ireland, but please be assured that if you choose to wear a poppy, the support is for the soldiers as people just doing their job, it has no political dimension. Obviously that support wouldn't extend to people who have committed war crimes as defined under international law, but luckily such people are few and far between.
In making this post, I'm not trying to tell Irish people what to do in their own country, just trying to provide a bit of information to help people make an informed decision.
Peace and good will :)
..as far as it goes.
'...soldiers as people doing their job...'.
But that job is the job of a professional(if badly paid) killer.As dupes and working people trying to escape abject poverty the army was often a means to a meal and a decent pair of boots. But at the end of the day they serve the forces of militarist domination at the expense of the cilvilians trapped in their various vicious crossfires with no means of defence. Shooting at their fellow victims in the opposite trench when they should have turned the barrel on the aristocratic officers going home to the country mansion while they got discharged to the same bleak streets and dole queues.
I'll wear your poppy when you convert its symbolism to being for the killed, maimed, orphaned and bereaved CIVILIANS who were(and ARE) caught unarmed in the imperial contests for the dynastic domination and sequestration of OUR wealth.
For evidence, the only time we are likely to see an army presence is when they are guarding the money for Group 4 as they drop the bankers' cargo off, or collect the current overflow for stashing offshore. Or you might encounter them down at Shannon protecting the emperor's new resource wars.
Doing their jobs? Only obeying orders, then.
Wasn't that the unacceptable Nurnberg defence?
I hear what you're saying ...
The reason I made the post is that it seems to me that some Irish people want to commemorate those Irish patriots who fought in World War I for the rights of small nations and as a good faith gesture to further the cause of Home Rule.
Of course it may be that the poppy is not the best way to do this, that is entirely for them to decide. I felt I should point out though that the politicisation of the poppy in some parts of your country is not widespread and for most of us it is an apolitical and inclusive symbol.
My grandfather was born to a Liverpool Irish family and fought in the trenches in World War I. When he died we found among his papers a photo of a soldier from World War I with the stamp of a dublin photographer on the back. He carried this picture of this fallen comrade all his life. We do not know who this man is, but I would like to think that his family were equally as able to commemorate him as I am my grandfather.
I totally agree with you that civilians should be remembered. Regarding the Nuremburg trials, they related specifically to war crimes as defined under international law and did not affect those who followed the accepted rules of military engagement.
Having said all that, internationalism is the way forward!
I'm sure the bombing of Dresden wasn't punished.
I'm sure the unnecessary bombing of japanese cities of hiroshima and then nagasaki was not punished either, despite it being known that Japan would surrender if their emperor could be left in place to save face. A total war crime and the only time nuclear weapons were ever used. By none other than Democracy and freedom loving," we have thousands of nukes on hair trigger pointed at y'all constantly", United States of America.
The protests against the wearing/placing of the 'Red (Haig) Poppy' on the shirts of British Football teams including Celtic is understandably debatable and clearly divisive.The problem with the Red Poppy (used in Britain, Canada & Australia) is that it is used as a symbol to commemorate their war fallen but only the combatants i.e. the armed forces of their respective countries. These poppies do not commemorate the hundreds of thousands of French, Polish, Russian, African, Indian, American and other forces who fought, died or suffered in the Great (or other wars). It certainly does not commemorate the German, Japanese, Italian, Korean, Iraqui or other forces who fell for the 'other side'. More importantly it does not act as a symbol of rememberance for the millions upon millions of civilians of whatever race, colour or creed who were slaughtered in these conflicts.
The supporters of the poppy will argue that the red poppy does comemmorate civilians (albeit on their side) but the pronouncements from the organisers of the poppy appeal and the media coverage/interviews of political, military or other supportes clearly demonstrate that it is solely (from a British point of view) a means of raising money to assist the families of those British forces who have died or servicemen who have been injured - no one else is 'remembered'.
I strongly believe that all those who have been killed, injured or suffered in any way in any war/conflict should be 'remembered'. As an Irishman I know and understand why so many Irishmen chose to fight for Britain and the US in successive wars. Of course, they should be remembered but so should every other serviceman/woman, every civilian, every child regardless of the uniform they wore.
Of course, pro Red Poppy supporters will say, for example, the Nazi's were evil - why should they be included in 'rememberance'. Simple, it should be taken as read that those who were evil/'war criminals' are not included. However, in all conflicts the majority of combatants on all sides are ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances doing their duty, fighting and dying for their country or casue they believed in. Therefore, for example the millions of 'ordinary' German, Italian, Japanese, Korean or other combatants should be equally remembered, They were fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters same as those on the other side. Their civilians were just as innocent as the civilians on the other side.
As far as I can tell there is currently only one symbol made to symbolise 'all' who have fallen/suffered as a result of conflict - that is the 'White Poppy'.
So next year why don't Glasgow Celtic FC and Celtic supporters take the lead and wear a White Poppy. This will demonstrate the proper amount of respect and recognise the sacrifice of those who fell serving in British forces. It will also allow the demonstration of respect and rememberance all those 'ordinary' servicemen/women and civilians on every side who fell or suffered, while at the same time focusing on the futility and inhumanity of war rather than 'glorifying' it.
Surely, the authorites cannot fault Celtic for that!
About 30 years ago, I was arrested in the grounds of Brisbane's (Australia) Catholic Cathedral at the request of a priest Brady, on instruction of the head of Queensland Special Branch (mostly Irish/Australian Catholics with the odd Italian) who was coming out of mass unusually in full onspetpr's uniform. It was during a mass crackdown on civil rights in Queensland (thousands of arrests for free speech infringements '77-'82...I probably went around the block a dozen times during this period.
We made the mistake of thinking the Cathedral grounds would offer a free speech sanctuary on what look liked the cusp of a Soviet invasion of Polska in response to the growing militancy of Solidarnosc.
But Fr. Brady had us busted and the riot squad was deployed that afternoon to stop the prayer meeting we were promoting/ with leaflets "The Body of Christ is Sufferng in Poland!".... about events in Polska taking place....four of us were in the watchhouse by that point.
Years later I was watching the teev, when the Australian priest Brady pops up on "60 Minutes" who had taken him and another WW2 pilot (British) back to the Dresden they had leveled. The Britsh pilot broke down in tears looking at the photos of the handiwrok they had done to the people of that city. Brady stood there stonyfaced:
The 60 Minutes reporter asked "What do you think now Fr. Brady?"
Brady "I was only following orders"
Reporter :"Isn't that what the Nazis said?"
Brady "Yes!"
..in its final judgement proclaimed war itself as criminal. Can anyone confirm or correct that?
Anyway, I still hold anyone signing up to carry arms at the behest of 'authority' is a coward rather than any sort of hero.
The real courage was shown by the conscientious objectors.
Maybe we need a ceremony to commemorate the Unknown Civilian.
via http://willievass.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/061110...7Iink
Celtic Fans Against the N11 "Bloodstained Poppy"
Wars of aggression and preventive wars are illegal under international law.
see this wsws article by Richard Hoffman
“The UN’s structure was grounded in the idea of overwhelming military force as the guarantor of peace against an aggressor state. “Peace,” British Prime Minister Winston Churchill declared on 24 May 1944, “will be guaranteed by the overwhelming military power of the new world organisation.” As in the Kellogg-Briand Pact, aggressive war was specifically outlawed in the UN Charter, which declared war to be a “scourge” from which the UN intended to “free mankind forever”. The use of force by any nation was explicitly forbidden by Article 2, Section 4, which remains the law today. Furthermore, reinforcing the unequivocal character of the prohibition on the use of armed force, Article 51 provides that the only exception to the absolute prohibition is in self-defence, after an attack by another state. This clearly excludes the use of force on the basis of a threatened or apprehended attack, and, therefore, the doctrine of preventive or “pre-emptive” use of force has no basis in international law.”
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/feb2010/nure-f20.shtml
Well I guess the poppy means different things to different people. I wear it as my wifes Grandad R.I.P. was an Aussie soldier and fought in ww2 against Japanese Imperialists, was captured, tourtured and made a P.O.W. for 3 years, put to work on the Burma railway and sent to a Japanese P.O.W. camp on Japan. I wear the poppy to represent his memory and men like him. Did he take part in the occupation of Ireland or any other small country for greed or Imperialism...?
No, men like him fought the Japanese and Nazis so that, we the generations of today, could sit at our nice comfy computers and judge those who fought and died so many years ago. The simple truth is that the dead deserve respect, the poppy in some small way is a symbol of this.
The whole point of this discussion is that the idea of the poppy has been commandeered to represent all troops in current conflicts and to fund veterans from current conflicts so the "unfortunate" expenses of paying for the injured poor people who come home (or "externalities") can be foisted on the rest of the population rather than using up important tax revenues which can be better used by giving them away to the rich.
If you care about the memory of your relation who fought then wear a white poppy. If you want to sponsor more wars for oil and profit which screw more poor economic conscripts to do the dirty work then wear a red poppy. I'm sure your dead relation would want that. I mean thats what he fought for right? (not!!)
wake up Joe. You are tarnishing the memory of the dead wearing this.
By the way, do read this if you get a chance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshi...asaki
I rather simplified it earlier.
Do something for a war veteran - get this one out of jail!
.postal address to write to Bradley on this site.
Bradley Manning support website
http://www.bradleymanning.org/
Bradley Manning Support Network Condemns Unjust Detainment of Activist
10 November 2010
Washington, DC, November 10, 2010 – Last week, David House, a developer working with the Bradley Manning Support Network, was detained and had his computer seized by the FBI when returning from a vacation in Mexico. He committed no crime, nor was he ever alleged to have committed a crime. He was questioned extensively about his support for alleged WikiLeaks whistleblower Bradley Manning, who has been imprisoned at Quantico for over 160 days.
Article continued..........
http://www.bradleymanning.org/13410/bradley-manning-sup...vist/