by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Aug 22, 2011 14:53

..and Libya are secondary, the main aim being the embedding of the NATO/West onto the moral high-ground, for home consumption as the depression sinks its teeth into final eradication of social programs, and the privatisation of services taxpayers have payed for, so the usual suspects benefit. Gaddafy was a handy target because they've coated him with so much tar over the years(and his behaviour, towards the 'West', has given them the ammunition). The press are totally embedded already, on or off the battlefields. The cross-ownership of shares in the corporate media and oil and other generators of war-profits means only a few fringe elements will even dare challenge the cementing consensus.

by Crazy Cat Mon Aug 22, 2011 18:53

1 - http://rutube.ru/tracks/4741787.html?v=ffec3b7bf55c4668...5f506

2- http://rutube.ru/tracks/4741966.html?v=e681c74152c31da9...53bca

3 - http://rutube.ru/tracks/4742119.html?v=b9546b64d9d68c16...53aa0

Video , in French, from Thierry Meysson in Tripoli last night.

by @spache Mon Aug 22, 2011 18:58

Voltaire Network concerned about the death threats hanging over Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya and Thierry Meyssan

Voltaire Network, Monday, August 22, 2011, 13:20 GMT - Voltaire Network is concerned about the threats targeting two of its team members in Tripoli. Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, Research Associate, Centre for Research on Globalization, and Thierry Meyssan, president and founder of Voltaire Network and the Axis for Peace Conference, are entrenched in the Hotel Rixos, around which heavy fighting is taking place. Reportedly, the order was given to shoot them down.

by Des - None Mon Aug 22, 2011 21:40

Interference in the internal affairs of an independent state. Repeated attempts to assassinate the head of state. The murder of thousands of men, women and children. And this from states who constantly lecture others about democracy and human rights. The so-called opposition, about to be installed in power by the west are a motley collection of ex government loyalists, and hysterically, a branch of Ossie's merry men. I hope those journalists get out in one piece. Washington and its have not hesitated to murder journalists before.

by T Tue Aug 23, 2011 00:34

As many know the ground breaking Al Jazzera channel of the past few years has brought us excellent coverage of many events and good honest reporting. They are based in Qatar and given this is just another Gulf state monarchy it is not suprising that they have loyalities.

Ever since the start of the Arab Spring and when it looked like people power might sweep through the region, all the monarchs have brutally cracked down as they don't want people power to succeed. It is during the last few months that many in the Arab world have noticed that Al Jazzera has suddenly become very biased in its reporting and condenation or lack of, depending on the country. In the case of the Libya crisis, they have cleared side with the West.

In the meantime, the few journalist who have NOT been toeing the NATO narrative are trapped in a hotel and surrounded by the 'rebel' forces and they are in grave danger. See this report from Russia Today (rt.com). There is a video report at the link given below

Journalist Mahdi Nazemroaya, who is stationed in a central Tripoli hotel with the international press, says the journalists are being targeted by the rebels and the NATO forces that support them. While he is speaking to RT, shooting can be heard.

“They are specifically targeting the areas where international journalists are, to sow panic here,” he argued. “NATO has done all the heavy work. This is a NATO war. They heavily bombed cities west of [Tripoli], they’ve bombed all night, without even 10 seconds of stopping. They have bombed this entire city and NATO landed the insurgents on the coast of Tripoli.”

But the city’s defenders are not pessimistic, continues Nazemroaya.

“The situation has gone tenser,” said Nazemroaya. “More members of the hotel stuff have returned with guns. Obviously they have been fighting. These are volunteers, not soldiers. They returned with a picture which is not a picture of loss and they are confident.”

by T Tue Aug 23, 2011 00:48

I have just been looking at some websites for decent pictures of the victory and the adorning crowds waiting for NATO and I see very very few people.

One website shows a square with a quite a big crowd but that turns out to be in the Eastern town of Benghazi. It actually has the caption: "A Kingdom of Libya flag is held aloft a building as people gather near the courthouse in Benghazi today."  How ironic that would have a 'kingdom' flag. This is in agreement with critical analysis elsewhere that some of these rebels are not interested in freedom. They want to restore the bloody monarchy.

As of tonight it turns out that there are battles taking place between loyalist forces and the rebels. Obama and all the other Western leaders -if we can call them that -are calling for Gadaffi to step down to avoid a bloodbath. This is because if he doesn't NATO is going to keep bombing Libyans until he does. So in a way they are correct, except it is day who are spilling the blood.

Make no mistake, while Gadàffi is no democract, this NATO action is simply an oil grab and they are going to bomb Libya back to the stone age if they have too.

by pat c Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:05

Latest allegations below. All is not as it seems. Gadaffi is a dictator but some strange elements are involved in the opposition. Its also worth noting that the Transitional Council based in Benghazi has played no part in the attack on Tripoli yet its still being treated as the only recognised authority in Libya. The NTC would be unlikely to get up to the minute battle info.

1152: 

 

Hany Soufrakis, NTC spokesman in Cairo, tells Newshour on the BBC World Service that "we are getting a lot of reports that a lot of [Gaddafi supporters] are taking different kinds of drugs... that are hallucinogenic".

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14610722

by @spache Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:16

The last night :

 

by the digger Tue Aug 23, 2011 14:13

>Then, a NATO warship sailed up and anchored just off the shore at Tripoli, delivering heavy weapons and debarking Al Qaeda jihadi forces, which were led by NATO officers<

I stopped reading at that point.

by T Tue Aug 23, 2011 18:58

The French independent journalist Thierry Meyssan who is trapped in a hotel in Tripoli and whose life is threatened by the Rebel forces and CIA and MI5 operatives because he is not reporting the NATO line has just filed a report on what he has seen in Tripoli

On Saturday, 20 August 2011, at 8:00 PM, that is to say just after the Iftar, the breaking of the Ramadan fast, the Atlantic Alliance launched "Operation Mermaid Dawn."

The Sirens were the mosque loud speakers which were used to launch Al Qaeda’s call to revolt against the Gaddafi government. Immediately, rebel "sleeper cells" went into action. Organized in small, highly mobile, groups, they carried out multiple attacks. The overnight combats left 350 dead and 3000 wounded.

The situation stabilized on Sunday during the course of the day.

A NATO ship docked near Tripoli unloaded heavy weapons and disembarked Al Qaeda jihadi forces, supervised by NATO officers.

The fighting started on Sunday night, reaching a rare degree of violence. NATO drones and aircraft kept bombarding in all directions. NATO helicopters strafed civilians in the streets with machine guns to clear the way for the jihadis.

In the evening, a motorcade of official cars carrying top government figures came under attack. It pulled into the Rixos Hotel where the foreign press is based. NATO did not dare to bomb the hotel to avoid killing its own journalists. Nevertheless the hotel, which is where I am staying, is now under heavy fire.

At 11:30 PM, the Ministry of Health could only announce that the hospitals were full to overflowing. By early evening there were 1300 additional dead and 5000 wounded.

NATO has been entrusted by the Security Council to protect civilians. In reality, France and the UK have just re-started their colonial massacres.

by @spache Tue Aug 23, 2011 21:38

last night

Journalist Mahdi Nazemroaya, who is stationed in a central Tripoli hotel with the international press, says the journalists are being targeted by the rebels and the NATO forces that support them. While he is speaking to RT, shooting can be heard.

by @spache Tue Aug 23, 2011 21:44

Today

Independent journalist Lizzie Phelan who is in Tripoli says allowing the rebels inside the capital could well be a strategic move on the part of Libya troops who have corralled the rebels into a single location.

by W. Finnerty Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:09

"President Barack Obama, in flagrant violation of his constitutional oath to execute his office as President of the United States and preserve and protect the United States Constitution, has usurped the exclusive authority of Congress to authorize the initiation of war, in that on March 19, 2011 President Obama initiated an offensive military attack against the Republic of Libya without congressional authorization. In so doing, President Obama has arrested the rule of law, and saluted a vandalizing of the Constitution that will occasion ruination of the Republic, the crippling of individual liberty, and a Leviathan government unless the President is impeached by the House of Representatives and removed from office by the Senate." (Bruce Fein is a lawyer in the United States of America who specializes in constitutional and international law.)

by Andrew Wed Aug 24, 2011 13:32

As Gaddafi falls - Lessons from Libya - imperialism, anti-imperialism & democratic revolution

The sudden end of the Gaddafi regime some 6 months after the start of the Libyan revolt leaves some difficult questions for the left. Gaddafi’s determination to physically crush the revolt quickly transformed it into a civil war, a civil war that saw considerable imperialist intervention on the rebel side, intervention that was essential to their eventual victory. This and Gaddafi’s historic record led to some on the left taking his side in the civil war while other organisations tried to balance support for the ‘Arab spring’s’ arrival in Libya with opposition to imperialism. This question of where the balance lies between international solidarity with pro-democracy movements and opposition to imperialism could well rapidly return to the top of the agenda in a very much bigger way as the regime in Syria continues its months long military suppression of the democracy movement there.

Sections in this Opinion piece
From facts to analysis to positions
A deal with imperialism - Lockerbie forgiven
It's all about oil
Anti-imperialist armed by imperialism
Imperialist rivalry
China & Russia
Fear of an Islamist planet
What is the National Transition Council
The Islamist presence, a threat or an opportunity?
Killing of Abdul Fatah Younis
The nature of military support
Military realities
Irish Republicanism & Gaddafi
The rebel need for military support
It wasn’t a Humanitarian intervention
Getting beyond strawman arguments
The limits of leninist anti-imperialism
Cold hard realities
The future for the Libyan people

Read the full article at http://www.wsm.ie/c/gaddafi-lessons-libya-imperialism-d...ution

by r Wed Aug 24, 2011 14:31

but as much as I'm opposed to NATO, this just reeks of conspiracy theories. Is there any hard info to go??

r

by NO-NATO Wed Aug 24, 2011 16:29

Even the mainstream media is now admitting “waves of disinformation” in Libya - http://www.activistpost.com/2011/08/even-mainstream-med....html

Madison Ruppert, Contributing Writer
Activist Post

Recently I covered the constant disinformation published by a Syrian “journalist” and editor of the American-funded anti-Syrian propaganda network out of London, England, Barada TV. This blatant (and admitted) politicized disinformation was just the beginning.

Thankfully, the mainstream media can no longer pretend that they are getting reliable information from their “sources” and are now being forced to address this, all too late in my opinion.

Hopefully this revelation of politicized disinformation’s role in the so-called “Arab Spring” will temper some of the sensationalist reports of civilian murders carried out by Middle Eastern governments that are totally unconfirmed and come solely from “activist” groups.

I sincerely hope that journalists around the globe can learn something from running with unconfirmed reports coming from a single side of a political conflict.

Of course, the New York Times article entitled “Waves of Disinformation and Confusion Swamp the Truth in Libya” focuses mostly on the disinformation promoted by Gaddafi and those loyal to him, instead of the blatant lies pushed by rebel forces and promoted by U.S. agents like Malik Al-Abdeh and other “journalists” with ulterior motives.

Most of the claims coming from the rebel forces have been proven totally false.

Muammar Gaddafi was not killed, nor was he captured, nor was he ever en route to the International Criminal Court (ICC).

Saif al-Islam Muammar al-Gaddafi, Gaddafi’s second son, was never en route to the ICC, which was even claimed by ICC officials themselves.

As Tony Cartalucci pointed out, the ICC has actually claimed that they never confirmed that Saif al-Islam was in custody.

In fact, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, an ICC prosecutor, confirmed this to the Telegraph, but Reuters is now laughably asserting that no such claim was ever made.

Cartalucci aptly sums up this massive confusion and disinformation among the media in one sentence, “ICC prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo should resign, so should editors at both the Telegraph and Reuters and a myriad of other media agencies complicit in spreading this willful and malicious propaganda.” I couldn’t agree more.

There is an escalation of the psychological warfare techniques being used by the rebels and the mainstream media in order to give the appearance of a rebel victory in Libya.

Malik Al-Abdeh attempted to justify these lies by saying that they were only lying in order to encourage the defection of loyalist forces, and I am sure we can see similar attempts at damage control from the mainstream Western media as well.

Hilariously, the New York Times actually blames the lies of the rebels on Gaddafi. They claim that they are pumping out disinformation because “he is the only leader they ever knew.”

Apparently the rebels could never be responsible for their own actions as it all falls on the shoulders of Gaddafi, no matter how farfetched such a notion might be in the mind of any rational human being.

The New York Times claims that the completely falsified reports of the capture of Saif al-Islam are, “A case in point” without managing to elucidate how this is at all based on Gaddafi’s “vision, and version, of reality.” Instead they just leave that statement without any explanation, likely hoping that the reader will take it at face value, regardless of the complete lack of all rationale behind it.

The Telegraph, the above mentioned London newspaper that published the illegitimate claims made by the ICC prosecutor and the rebels, is quoted in the New York Times article attempting to mitigate the fallout from their discredited reporting that has irreparably scarred the so-called news agency.

Rob Crilly attempts, and fails, to do this by writing, “It’s a timely reminder that Twitter, 24-hour rolling news channels and satphones are still useless against the fog of war”.

Apparently, thorough fact-checking and proper reporting is still useless as well, or at least it is out of the realm of possibility for the Telegraph to actually check out the claims being made and the legitimacy of the sources making them.

The article also mentions the disinformation being published heavily in the early days of the brutal NATO assault on civilians in Libya as seemingly “intended to reassure queasy domestic audiences that a quick victory was possible.”

Unfortunately for the NYT and other mainstream news outlets publishing these lies, few people in the world could toss aside their knowledge of recent history and the colonial-imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in order to buy these claims.

Echoing the statements coming from George W. Bush years ago in which he essentially said that he no longer cared about Osama bin Laden and that he was no longer important, NATO spokesman Colonel Roland Lavoie said, “I’m not sure [Gaddafi’s whereabouts] really [do] matter.”

The NYT article also mentions that, regardless of the complete absence of proof, the ICC is pursuing an investigation of the allegations made by rebel forces that loyalist troops were issued Viagra in order to carry out systematic rape of Libyans.

Interestingly, the most accurate facts of the situation are presented in the last four paragraphs of the article on the second page. This is likely because most readers do not have the time or patience to make it that far.

In one of the last articles they mention the racist claims coming from the rebels (which they characterize as having “racist overtones” which is laughable, at best) that Gaddafi has been using African mercenaries in his resistance of the uprising.

I must point out that when the mainstream media says “African” they mean black. This is obviously an attempt to be politically correct, but it is also massively inaccurate seeing as literally every single Libyan is African, given that is an African nation.

The NYT accurately points out that although there have supposedly been African prisoners of war captured by the rebel forces, journalists have never been allowed to see them.

Like I have pointed out in the past, the NYT correctly identifies the fact that there are black guest workers, mostly Chadian, who have come to Libya in search of poorly paid jobs as migrant laborers which are being inaccurately labeled as mercenaries. Tragically, many of these innocent migrant workers have been killed and arrested simply for being black.

I sincerely hope that we can see some accurate information emerge from either side of this conflict, as I am getting more distrustful and disillusioned by the day, as I’m sure many readers are as well.

by @spache Wed Aug 24, 2011 17:53

Welcome to Libya's 'democracy'
By Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MH24Ak01.html

Disaster capitalism swoops over Libya
By Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MH25Ak02.html

Is NATO Intervention Illegitimate?
By Real News Network

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&...=7190

by NO to NATO Wed Aug 24, 2011 18:21

CNN tells journalists in Libya "Don't mention al Qaeda or you'll get killed"

On 08-22-2011 Independent journalist Mahdi Nazemroaya told RT how people working for CNN told him not to talk about al-Qaeda being part of the rebels or he would be killed. Journalist Thierry Meyssan has reported that these same individuals are actually working for the CIA and MI6.

Caption: Video Id: cPZIWokOqJA Type: Youtube Video
"Don

by Old timer Wed Aug 24, 2011 19:56

I think indymedia.ie just jumped the shark

by T Wed Aug 24, 2011 22:29

Two separate reports covering Monday and Tuesday can be found on www.countercurrents.org

On Tuesday the credibility of the rebels took a major blow when they said they had captured Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam, who then showed up in the Rixos Hotel alive and gave an interview.

From the first report: Fighting Continues In Tripoli After Gaddafi Compound Is Overrun By Bill Van Auken
http://www.countercurrents.org/auken240811.htm


The credibility of the NTC suffered a major blow early Tuesday, when Gaddafi’s son and heir apparent, Saif al-Islam, made an appearance at the Rixos Hotel, where foreign journalists are being held by pro-Gaddafi forces. .....

....The attitude of the major imperialist powers to the events in Tripoli stood in sharp contrast to the divisions and wavering within the NTC, a collection of former Gaddafi officials, Libyan CIA “assets” and Islamists. US, British and French officials made it clear that they are making extensive preparations to carry through their goal of “regime change”, which they have pursued for the last six months under the cover of United Nations resolution authorizing military force for the protection of civilians.

It should be noted that he refers to the rebels as former Gaddafi officials, CIA assets and Islamists. It is the Islamists and some but not all of the CIA assets which are being referred to as Al Qaeda elsewhere although that certainly would not mean all the Islamists are. But the Islamists in general would have the same outlook although one should remember that Al Qaeda is really just a brand more than anything else.

The second report: Tripoli Port Notes by Franklin Lamb
http://www.countercurrents.org/lamb240811.htm

His line is that he doesn't buy into the pro-Gaddafi propaganda but he certainly doesn't buy into the NATO/rebel propaganda either.

He says
NATO is widely viewed as having violated the three main terms of UNSCR 1973, to wit, NATO did engage in regime change, it did take sides in a civil war, it did arm one side, and it did refuse to allow a negotiated diplomatic settlement which many here and internationally believe could have been achieved by early April, thus saving hundreds Libyan lives

In other words by the actions of NATO on just that point hundreds are dead -never mind that fact that NATO bombs and straffing has killed 100s directly. -i.e slaughter.

The rest of his report is interesting and this tid-bit confirms an earlier report in one of the comments above but which people don't seem to be taking seriously

....One rebel media representative who re-defected back to the Gaddafi regime from the rebels is being interviewed by a journalist this afternoon. He told us that the NATO office in Naples is writing or vetting all NTC communications and that they have on their staff Israel Defense Ministry of Information psych-warfare specialists who are producing “panic causing leaflets & mobile phone messages” as well as putting out false claims at key moments for maximum impact on international and local public opinion
.....
...The above noted interviewee also claims that he heard rumors that NATO has dropped hit teams to control the messages coming from non MSM reporters who depict NATO and rebel activities in a negative light. Time may tell.

by Al Queada = US/UK/Israel Thu Aug 25, 2011 01:28

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindi....html

Al Q works for the US/UK/Israel - anyone that hasn't figured that out by now, after 10 years, should just admit they haven't got a clue - because they are obviously not able to understand any of this and believe whatever tripe the Corporate Media feed them - go back top watching Big Brother or something equally inane

by T Thu Aug 25, 2011 13:56

The Antiwar.com website carries a report titled: Kucinich: 'NATO Not Exempt From Law' covering a press release from the former US presidential candidate for the last election who condenms the actions of NATO in this war.

For someone of such high ranking diplomatic stature to say something like this, let alone release a public statement on it, means things have to be really bad on the ground and actions so blatantly criminal to take such a course of action.

In his statement he says:

"NATO commanders who authorized the bombing of Libya should be “held accountable” to international law and hauled before the world court for civilian deaths", Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) said Tuesday.

Surprisenly and a bit unexpectedly, -again for someone at his level to break ranks, he mentions the taboo word 'Al Qaeda' which strikes fear in the heart of many because if you say this word in the wrong context you can be labelled a loony.

Anyhow the quote is:

“Was the United States, through participation in the overthrow of the regime, furthering the aims of international oil corporations in pursuit of control over one of the world’s largest oil resources?” he asked. “Did the United States at the inception of the war against Libya align itself with elements of Al Qaeda, while elsewhere continuing to use the threat of Al Qaeda as a reason for U.S. military intervention, presence and occupation?”

by crazy cat Thu Aug 25, 2011 16:16

Link to the Volatire Nerwork

http://www.voltairenet.org/Voltaire-Network-denounces-the

by T Thu Aug 25, 2011 23:44

Below is a link to a report on RT.com from an Italian activist Yvonne Di Vito who went to Libya on July 29th and returned on Aug 7th and her first had accounts are completely at odds with the mainstream media. He tells of how NATO were bombing places with food and hospitals and how she saw huge protests against NATO which were not shown on Italian TV.

She noted that things at the time were normal and referred to it as Switzerland of the African continent and that it was very rich and schools and hospitals were free for the people and conditions for women was much better than other Arab countries.

Caption: Video Id: CiIOErIERV4 Type: Youtube Video
RT.com interview of Yvonne Di Vito

by T Fri Aug 26, 2011 00:17

The story of Depleted Uranium does not get much press coverage in the mainstream media but that is not suprising because when used as the harded tips of missiles and bullets and when they explode on impact and vaporize they leave an extremely fine dust of tiny DU particles which are radioactive and remain so for thousands of years.

Uranium has two main forms, called U-238 and U-235. Natural uranium ore is composed of 99.3% U-238 and 0.7% U-235. The U-235 can be used for nuclear bombs and reactors. U-238 is less useful and so there is a lot of it left over after the mining and enriching process. Both forms are radioactive but U-235 is far more unstable and it can be triggered to fission by absorbption of a neutron and this is what gives it the potential it has. Uranium is very very heavy and dense. More so than lead and is the reason why combined with hardness, it is used for armour piercing weapons.

The huge temperature of impact and explosives mostly vaporize all or part of these tips and this fine radioactive dust settles all around, gets blown here and there, contaminates the soil, gets inhaled by people and gets into the water table and supply.

U-238 is an alpha emitter. This means when it decays it releases an helium nucleus (2 protons and 2 neutrons). Alpha particles do not travel very far. Just a few centimeters at most. So a geiger counter tends not to detect it unless it is right up close. The real problem and indeed horror is that if these radioactive specks of DU dust get inhaled into your lungs or into your body via your bloodstream or ingestion because the particles can be sub-micron, then they just sit there and send out these highly energetic and ionising alpha particles continually into the same bunch of surrounding cells in your body and will over time trigger cancers and numerous other problems. They are like tiny timebombs in you. For example many soldiers from various wars which were assigned to cleanups of tanks hit by DU weapons later died months and years afterward.

In Iraq and Afghanistan vast areas are now contaminated and the cancer rate and birth defect rate has soared.

These weapons are considered weapons of mass destruction in their own right, because they end up killing masses of people and going on killing indiscriminately for a very very long time afterward.

Below are just a few of the reports raising concern about their use by NATO since March 2011

NATO uses depleted uranium bombs against Libya
http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/03/30/48203222.html

And extracts:
“An unacceptable threat to life and a violation of international law” – that’s how the United States’ former Justice Secretary Ramsey Clark slammed the use of depleted uranium weapons. The United States first used depleted uranium bombs during the military invasion of Iraq in 1991. Apparently pleased with the debut, the Americans pounded them on Yugoslavia nine years later. These days, world news media have been awash with reports that NATO is using depleted uranium bombs against Libya.
.......
The uranium filling boomeranged on NATO troops. In the densely populated Yugoslavia, leukemia symptoms were particularly extensive with radiation levels 10 to 1,000 times above normal. More than 250 Italian soldiers died from cancer-related diseases. As for civilians, here’s just one example. Leukemia rates among new-born babies in former Yugoslavia have soared from one per 1,000 prior to NATO’s uranium attacks to between 10 and 15 per 1,000 now.


What a Strange Way to Protect Civilians: Depleted Uranium and Libya
http://original.antiwar.com/david-wilson/2011/04/15/wha...ibya/

Extracts:

"We are there to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas"
– William Hague

"I was watching ABC News last night and, lo and behold, there was a DU impact. It burned and burned and burned."
- Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project commenting on Libya attack.

"Depleted uranium tipped missiles fit the description of a dirty bomb in every way… I would say that it is the perfect weapon for killing lots of people."
– Marion Falk, chemical physicist (retd), Lawrence Livermore Lab, California, USA

.....
In the first 24 hours of the Libyan attack, US B-2s dropped forty-five 2,000-pound bombs. Did any of these massive bombs, along with the Cruise missiles launched from British and French planes and ships, contain depleted uranium? Doug Rokke joins others such as Conn Hallinan, of Foreign Policy in Focus, in believing that the answer is yes. ....


Other links are:
West using depleted uranium in Libya
http://old.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=238827

NATO Irradiates Libya
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/04/15/nato-irradiates-...ibya/

It is worth asking the question. When these freedom loving rebels take over, will they be providing free health to the people of Libya or will what remains of it be privatised and out of their reach? Not that modern medicine can do much for you, once this shit has silently and unknownly got into your body.

by Crazy Cat Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:18

By Don DeBar

Coverage of the situation in Libya over the past three days, while useless to anyone trying to understand what is actually happening in Libya, nevertheless provides an interesting peek into the modus operandi of the global media that has broad application for the decoding of its coverage of all of the issues that touch our lives.

The manufacture of events in Libya has been underway since the lead-up to the US-led invasion, including the narrative that enabled the UN resolutions 1970 and 1973 - prominent among these were the claim that the Libyan government was conducting an aerial war against protestors, countered by satellite evidence from the Russian military showing no such attacks took place, and the claim that African mercenaries were firing on protestors, which was both untrue and provoked racist killings of Libyans with African features and skin by rebel gangs.
Absent from the manufactured narrative was the report by the Pakistan Observer on February 25th that US, UK and French troops had landed in Benghazi on February 23rd and 24th. Also absent were photographs of captured Qatari weapons that were intended for rebel forces in Brega, and reports of French arms also sent to the rebels.

Since March 19th, a US-led NATO bombing campaign has been conducted against Libya. On one day alone, former Rep. Cynthia McKinney reported from Tripoli that she and a group from the African Union counted 89 bomb explosions in that city alone during a twelve-hour period. In terms of TNT poundage, that is somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 to 50 World Trade Center explosions in a city the size of Manhattan EACH DAY for more than 180 consecutive days.

( More ... : http://warisacrime.org/content/whats-happening-libya

Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD6dEfuNhL0&feature=play...edded )

by Crazy cat Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:28

Different articles

http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/

by Crazy Cat Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:35

http://williambowles.info/2011/08/27/what-is-going-on-i...ibya/

by Plato Sat Aug 27, 2011 13:41

Just saw footage of the slaughter of the wounded prisoners in Tripoli. The "rebels" who did this are hardly worthy of support. I am glad that Ireland has nothing to do with this oil grab. It appears that after the "west" gets what it wants, Libya will be a lawless mess run by gangs loyal to the US,EU and Israel for decades. Arab spring my ass.

by G Sat Aug 27, 2011 14:07

From Znet:
http://www.zcommunications.org/popular-rebellion-and-im...chcar

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Aug 27, 2011 14:10

The fog of war syndrome makes it hard to call. And the proverbial 'First Casualty' is long festering in the Sun.

Sarko and Cameron are getting their neo-imperial jollies, and probably laying in some credit with Shell/BP and the boys for post political directorships.

Israel, UK and US have a long-standing personal vendetta, get a chance to test and justify their arsenals and 'defence' budgets, Sarko probably thinks it wont hurt his pending election chances, and Silvio wants to play with the big boys while distracting from his antics and legal problems.
Overall its the ongoing replacement of the UN(well tamed by now anyway)by the dictatorship of the willing and their NATO military wing.

It also serves to distract from the civilian collective punishment, yet again, of Gaza, and the ongoing Zionist /Crusader state painting of the Palestinians as terrorists needing suppression rather than colonised people deserving of UN recognition.
And thats just what remains semi-obvious, no doubt there's agendas even the fevered imagination cant probe.

If I was to sum it, I'd say its the re-emergence of the nineteenth century global carve-up that got bogged down in the Cold War stand-off for half a century, and now has the green-light. The mission-creepers in the EU/US axis of benignity will now focus on Syria and Iran, but ultimately Russia and China are the targets for containment till they can work a way to tame or vivisect them. Full Spectrum Dominance and the neo-con market-totalitarian Project for a New American Century would be their terms. The conditions we'll just have to watch unfold. Meantime its all fingers on the buttons and Dr Strangelove at the console.

Recommended reading? Ron Rosenbaum's 'How the End Begins', the road to a nuclear WW lll.

by T Sat Aug 27, 2011 22:18

"Reporters in the field, more or less embedded with the rebels, cheering the rebels on" Another video intereview from RT.com of author and journalist Afshin Rattansi. The mainstream media are simply refusing to give any honest picture of the butchery going on but then thats not suprising because the capitalist media and state media of the aggressors is hardly going to reveal what is really going on.

Caption: Video Id: tWb9x2FqwJk Type: Youtube Video
Fail Trail: Gadaffi idotically embraced neo-liberalism

by Irish Humanist Sun Aug 28, 2011 00:43

Most people commenting here are hyper critical of our (Western) lifestyle, governments, democratic system, liberal values and all of our media (incl the BBC, the Guardian etc..) However we are all protected by strong legal systems of human and individual rights - freedom of information laws, many human rights organisations, Police oversight/ombudsmen etc. Freedom to stand for election or vote for whom we like (ok, it's difficult to get good candidates..).

Its quite obvious most of you commenting have no idea of the daily lives of the vast majority of the world's population who would dearly love to have our freedoms and legal protections - and, yes that IS a fact!

I've lived in India and I can assure you the vast majority of public officials and police are totally corrupt - you have to pay bribes for all interreactions with public officials - a driving licence, a passport, all kinds of licences, permissions for everything - I can tell you it is ten times more bureacratic than the West and the officials really really enjoy their power over the public and they show it daily to your face.

It has been the same across much of Asia, Africa and South America for decades. Some of this may be due to the after effects of Colonialism (as in Ireland - see how corrupt we have been compared to most of Northern Europe) but that is not an excuse 40 or 50 years after the colonists have departed.

Personally, I don't think the majority of the journalists in Lybia from the BBC, Al Jazeera, Guardian, Le Monde, etc are just stupid stooges of the CIA or MI5 - this is an insult to their integrity and intelligence (is Orla Guerin a 'stooge'?). Remember, its the main stream media (ok not Murdochs 'press' or Fox news or other rotten ones) who have always exposed the greatest conspiracies of the most powerful on earth - Watergate, Irangate, the CIA crimes in South America from 1950s to 80s, Wikileaks, the Iraq sexed-up dossier, Abu Graib, Guantanamo etc. Yes it has been the journalists and their editors who have exposed the wrong-doings of Presidents, Prime Ministers, intelligence organisations and the rotten elements in the Media. Please don't tar them all with the brush of 'stooges' it's not fair, just or right - just throwing s**t at a whole population.

You cannot just keep dragging up the old 1970s 'Imperialist western scum' arguments for every conflict situation in the world and try to twist the story to fit your pre-conceived theory of how the world is organised/happens etc. Yes, the West has done awful things for centuries (as have Muslim powers, Asian powers, Mugul emperors, Aztecs, etc . . . every empire and warlord worldwide - all have been guilty of opression, invasions and murder.). Buy just because they all did evil in the past doesn't mean everything they do is evil - every situation must be examined on it's merits (and it is examined - by the best of the Media)

For all ye who are appalled by the overthrow of Gadaffi (yes, I too thought he was progressive years ago, but have changed my mind) how do you support a regime who, just thirteen years ago, murdered 1200 unarmed prisoners in a prison in Tripoli.

Please explain why we should not support the rebels.

In fact it is because Western governments are very afraid of intervening in any Arab country that all are being very shy of interfering in Assads very violent repression of dissent in his country.

ps. Why do most commentators here accept the word of RT.com as the truth - all others (BBC, Guardian etc ) are involved in the Great Imperialist Conspiracy but poor old RT has been left out - a bastion of truth worldwide? Wha?

by Con Carroll Sun Aug 28, 2011 00:54

Empire new clothes do these word ring a bell. this was a song by Sinead o Connor. listening to Ms o Callaghan, anlaysis standing in for pat Kenny the woman hasn't a journalistic political note in her head.

no doubt Gaddafi rule of terror is barbaric. let see who supported him, well of course war monger Blair. along with the French, American
hypocritical bastards,
who remembers the politics, words of attacks. against people who were alleged involved in terrorism, using the name of Allah. Islam. people detained without their rights, denied access to their solicitors, tortured and hooded, with the approval of Western Democracy civilization Christian. kidnapped put on board torture flights dogs set apon them been urinated on. alot of these people were released. tagged in England under house arrest. no access to internet. we are now told that some of these people released are now involved in the war of terrorism in Libya. our media are silence, as they carry out the orders of the war mongers, doing their dirty work of terrorism. Rober Fisk Friday 26 August said that with people been murdered,bodies lying on the streets, French oil companys were already making moves in Libya. no public outrage as was in 2003 across Europe the world. while Israel can do as it wants

one would hope that the Communist political thought class political solidarity would rise

if you tremble indignation at every injustice,
you are a comrade of mine
Ernesto Che Guevera

by Serf Sun Aug 28, 2011 06:13

Irish Humanist: "In fact it is because Western governments are very afraid of intervening in any Arab country that all are being very shy of interfering in Assads very violent repression of dissent in his country."

The lack of mention of Bahrain in your post leads me to the conclusion that you are no better than the BBC.

Humanist my ass!
Apologist? perhaps.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:39

I listened to a presenter about an hour ago on BBC Radio 4 reminding his audience that MI6 and the SAS were on the ground from the start. Obviously honest journalism.

Meantime every BBC 4 and World Service news bulletin opens with '...the civil war in Libya..'. The only way its a CIVIL war is if Libya is considered as integral to the EU/US geopolitical unit. Washington, London and Paris obviously consider it a done deal.

The preponderant message is that Libya is now safely inside our tent. I hold no torch for Gadaffy, but NATO is no answer. If the 'West' was interested in establishing a world of law and order it would be building the UN as the instrument of action and strenghtening the General Assembly over the Security Council. Instead it is cynically using the UN to rubber-stamp its agenda and expanding any licence to enforce to suit its resource-monopolisation imperial program.

Democracy and the dictatorship of a US/NATO/EU Sickurity Council do not correspond.

by FFS Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:51

The media campaign is waaaaay to co-ordinated. All English-speaking Western Media are virtually speaking with one voice - whenever you see that happening, you're being conned

We have to go to French Media for some truth, if only a little -

First honest account of massacre taking place in Tripoli by French mainstream pro NATO channel France24. Rebels cleanse Tripoli's Abu Slim area. - http://www.voltairenet.org/Rebels-cleanse-Tripoli-s-Abu...-Slim

lovely word that, 'CLEANSE', no? Very civil, no?

France24 correspondent reporting from Tripoli ''What we are seeing today is certainly the saddest phase of the Libyan war, with columns of rebels who are assailing this area, these people, the families. Our colleagues have just returned after an all-night coverage at the main Tripoli hospital, reporting the arrival of a large number of gunshot victims, including elderly people, women and even children. '' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=...81n-8

The 'rebels' have already admitted that they are Al Qeada connected. They did so months ago, did you miss it?

Anyone with even half-a-brain should by now have figured-out that Al Q are a group of Mercenaries in the pay of the US/UK/Israeli Security Services (SS)

Irish humanist:"But just because they all did evil in the past doesn't mean everything they do is evil - every situation must be examined on it's merits (and it is examined - by the best of the Media) "

Seriously - that's ridiculously naive - you should probably stick to watching fairy-tales and Big-Brother on TV - because analysing Current events is beyond you it appears

by FFS Sun Aug 28, 2011 14:19

for anyone out there that thought the NATO attack on Libya, laughingly labelled 'humanitarian intervention', was a good idea: look here: http://www.obamaslibya.com/
(Very graphic NSFW) so maybe you won't be so easily fooled next time, eh? . . .hopefully anyway

here also is a video of CNN faking an attack on their location - note the sound of gunfire - the sound remains the same, same loudness etc, even though the CNN group are driving rapidly away from the site. Note also that one guy stands on the roadside, nonchalantly chatting away on his mobile while supposedly under-fire

Caption: Video Id: ElwGIC1eR4A Type: Youtube Video
CNN faking attacks in Libya

by FFS Sun Aug 28, 2011 15:12

[NATO-Financed] Mercenaries settle scores in Libyan capital
Kim Sengupta, Independent, Aug 27 2011 - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/rebels-s....html

Libyan rebels have been meting out brutal treatment to sub-Saharan
Africans in Tripoli, suspecting that they are Gaddafi loyalists (Reuters)

The killings were pitiless. They had taken place at a makeshift hospital, in a tent marked clearly with the symbols of the Islamic Crescent. Some of the dead were on stretchers, attached to intravenous drips. Some were on the back of an ambulance that had been shot at. A few were on the ground, seemingly attempting to crawl to safety when the bullets came. Around 30 men lay decomposing in the heat. Many of them had their hands tied behind their back, either with plastic handcuffs or ropes. One had a scarf stuffed into his mouth. Almost all of the victims were black men. Their bodies had been dumped near the scene of two of the fierce battles between rebel and regime forces in Tripoli. Lifting the tent flap to show the body of one dead patient, his grey T-shirt stained dark red with blood, the saline pipe running into his arm black with flies, Ahmed Bin Sabri shouted:

Come and see. These are blacks, Africans, hired by Gaddafi, mercenaries.

Why had an injured man receiving treatment been executed? Sabri, more a camp follower than a fighter, shrugged. It was seemingly incomprehensible to him that anything wrong had been done. The corpses were on the grass verges of two large roundabouts between Bab al-Aziziyah, Muammar Gaddafi’s compound stormed by the revolutionaries at the weekend and Abu Salim, a loyalist district which saw three days of ferocious violence. The UN issued an urgent call for restraint by both sides in the bloody and bitter endgame to the civil war yesterday. But the thirst for vengeance has been difficult to control, to which the morgues, hospitals and the urban killings fields of the Libyan capital bore testimony. The mounting number of deaths of men from sub-Saharan Africa at the hands of the rebels, lynchings in many cases, raises disturbing questions about the opposition administration, the Transitional National Council taking over as Libya’s government, and about Western backing for it. The atrocities have apparently not been confined to Tripoli: Amnesty International has reported similar violence in the coastal town of Zawiyah, much of it against men from sub-Saharan Africa who, it has been claimed, were migrant workers. The Independent understands that the suspected atrocities by rebel fighters have been raised with members of the TNC in recent days by British officials, who made clear their “concern” at the reports coming out of Tripoli and the expectation in London that anyone suspected of war crimes will face trial. The Foreign Office underlined that the apparent executions of pro-Gaddafi soldiers were as yet unverified. A spokesman said:

We are aware of reports, but have no means of verifying them. We condemn all human rights abuses. The TNC leadership has made clear the need to avoid violence and reprisals and has repeatedly said that anyone found guilty of crimes will be held to account. We have emphasised the importance of this in our conversations with them. This is in stark contrast to Gaddafi, who continues to launch indiscriminate and violent attacks on the Libyan people.

But, for some on the ground in Tripoli, a different view has taken hold. Since the start of the uprising last February the opposition has tried to portray the conflict as waged by patriotic Libyans against the dictator’s foreign hired guns. A few of the tales took fanciful turns, such as that about the crack team of female snipers, either Serbian or Colombian, depending on the version. But it was black males, very often migrant workers, who paid the lethal price after being accused of being mercenaries. Only a few of the dead found at the roundabouts yesterday were in uniform. The street-fighting for Abu Salim was particularly fierce, with regime snipers taking a steady toll among the ranks of al-Shabaab volunteer fighters. The losses, and frustration at the continuing stubborn resistance by the enemy after an entry into the capital greeted with celebration by residents, has led to something approaching fury among some of the revolutionaries in the last few days. Pointing at the bodies, Mushab Abdullah, a 35-year-old rebel fighter from Misrata, said:

They were shooting at us and that is the reason they were killed. It had been really tough at Abu Salim, because these mercenaries know that, without Gaddafi to protect them, they are in big trouble. That is why they were fighting so hard.

His companion, Mohammed Tariq Muthar, counted them off on the fingers of his hand:

We have found mercenaries from Chad, Niger, Mali and Ghana, all with guns. And they took action against us.

But, if the men had been killed in action, why did they have their hands tied behind their back? Abdullah suggested:

Maybe they were injured, and they had to be brought to this hospital and the handcuffs were to stop them from attacking. And then something went wrong.

Ethnic Libyan “collaborators”, too, have been the subject of the punitive attention of the revolutionaries. The prison at Abu Salim had its doors flung open by the revolutionaries on Thursday, letting 4,000 inmates free. Now there is talk of using the complex for captured Gaddafi troops. Meanwhile, Ahmed Safar Warfalla was being held in a temporary “cell”, a locked room at a school in the suburb of Tajoura, accused of spreading Gaddafi propaganda. Three Chadian “mercenaries” kept at the same place had already been transferred to jail and the local militia was considering what to do with him. Taking out a copy of the Koran from his pocket and pointing it to the sky, Warfalla shouted:

They accuse me of a crime, but this is what I did. Allah and Libya. They have NATO technology? This is Arab, Muslim technology. We shall not be defeated.

After a brief consultation, the militia decided to let Warfalla go. Adussalem Mohammed Ashur said:

What is the point of keeping him; the man is mad! If it was me and I was a prisoner of Gaddafi then I would not have come out so easily. People have disappeared for saying things.

Amnesty International stated yesterday that it had uncovered evidence that regime forces had killed detainees held at two camps in Tripoli. One of the attacks took place at a military camp in Khilit al-Ferjan where 160 detainees attempted to get away after the guards told them that the gates were unlocked. AI said in a report:

As the detainees barged through the hangar gates, two other guards opened fire and threw five hand grenades at the group.

Twenty-three of the prisoners managed to make good their escape and were able to receive treatment at a Tripoli hospital. Meanwhile, RAF Tornado GR4 warplanes fired Cruise missiles at a bunker in Sirte, which is continuing to stave off rebel attacks. Ahmed Bani, a military spokesman for the TNC, said:

Maybe this will help. Maybe the mercenaries there will run away. This will allow the local people to rise up and we can bring this to a conclusion.

NATO backed mercenaries grabbing any 'Black Fella' they can find

Black Africans murdered by NATO-Financed Mercenaries in Libya - Note the cuffs on the hands of the dead men

by Crazy Cat Sun Aug 28, 2011 21:31

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA2OxRJ_SRo&feature=play...dded#!

by An Draighneán Donn Mon Aug 29, 2011 00:28

I see the media whores in RTÉ News were cheering on NATO tonight, like if the Blueshirt brigade, under O'Duffy himself, was leading the charge on Tripoli.

by Des - None Mon Aug 29, 2011 01:10

Yes, there is slaughter in Libya, it is being carried out by those bastions of democracy, the USA and the European Union, not to mention their blatant aggression against an independent state in order to control its oil via local stooges. NATO criteria for 'humanitarian intervention' equals mass murder of men, women and children. Aided and abetted by the establishment media, including our own 'public service' broadcaster.

by Anyone that trusts the BBC is a moron Mon Aug 29, 2011 01:40

"It is not necessary to bury the truth. It is sufficient merely to delay it until nobody cares".
Napoléon Bonaparte.

While the NATO-Financed Al Qeada-linked Mercenaries in Libya are murdering any and all that might have supported Ghaddafi the execrable BBC (Propaganda wing of the NATO-Member British State, currently bombing Libya) publishes a concern-troll 'story' (and a story is all it is) titled "Libya rebels fear for Gaddafi prisoners" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14702853

Remember that there is photographic evidence of these NATO-Financed Al Qeada 'rebels' murdering prisoners who have had their hands cuffed.

But the BBC thinks it's Ghaddafi that might murder prisoners and makes absolutely no mention of the 'rebels' murdering prisoners.

Consider also the details of this ridiculous piece of BBC propaganda - the story states that

Libyan rebels say they are concerned over the fate of thousands of prisoners held in Tripoli by the Gaddafi regime.

Rebel military spokesman Col Ahmed Omar Bani said almost 50,000 people arrested in recent months were unaccounted for.

The rebels believe they may be being held in underground bunkers, which have since been abandoned.

This figure of 50,000 is pure nonsense - - 50,000 people take up a LOT of space, dead or alive, you cannot hide that number of people, or their bodies. Mass-Graves would show up pretty quickly. right now there must be at least 4 or 5 satellites, at an absolute minimum, trained on Libya, so where are these mythical 50,000 people being held?

Note that the BBC thought of that so they inserted complete nonsense about "they may be being held in underground bunkers" - pure nonsense - anyone that swallows such nonsense should consider themselves bona-fide morons

Rights groups have seen evidence that dozens of people have been massacred near prisons, but Col Bani did not accuse anyone of killing the prisoners.

Yes, because as France 24 have told us It is the NATO-Financed 'rebels' who are massacring these people. -

"The number of people arrested over the past months is estimated at between 57,000 and 60,000," he said in a news conference in Benghazi.

"Between 10,000 and 11,000 prisoners have been freed up until now... so where are the others?"

The colonel appealed for anyone with information to come forward, and said it would be "catastrophic" if they had been killed.

These 'rebels' (NATO-Financed Al Qeada mercenaries) are simply laying the groundwork for when evidence of massacres becomes undeniable - they can simply point the finger at Ghaddafi, and claim that the murders the rebels themselves are RIGHT NOW committing, are actually these non-existent 50,000 'disappeared'

And the BBC is happily helping them do this - some arse-head hack named Jon Lynne writes

Those still missing are many of the tens of thousands of Libyans rounded up since the start of the revolution on 17 February. They include protesters, both from Tripoli and elsewhere in the country.

The opposition insist they have kept detailed records.
[ O'Rly? And how exactly did they do this? The 'rebels' rolled in from the East - they had almost NO structure in Tripoli. How exactly did they keep "detailed records" of anonymous people in crowds in Tripoli being arrested?]

So they know that 57,000-60,000 Libyans were arrested, but so far only 11,000 are accounted for.

The fear is that the rest are still trapped in secret underground prison bunkers, where they have been abandoned by their captors since the opposition overran Tripoli. It's a race against time to find and to release them.

More of the 'seekrit underground bunker' crap - the BBC must think everyone is an idiot to even think they could get away with this shite.

What kind of moron would swallow this drivel?

by finally Mon Aug 29, 2011 01:46

The Independent reports- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/charred-....html - today what was to be expected of some of the rebels in Libya:

Yesterday, The Independent on Sunday learned that the rebel military commander behind the successful assault on Tripoli had fought in Afghanistan alongside the Taliban and was an Islamist terror suspect interrogated by the CIA. Abdelhakim Belhadj, the newly appointed commander of the Tripoli Military Council is a former emir of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) – banned by Britain and the US as a terrorist organisation after the 9/11 attacks.

So a US/UK/Israeli financed terrorist mercenary is leading the opposition to Ghaddafi

by An DD Mon Aug 29, 2011 21:07

I see the media whores in RTÉ are calling the racist lynch mob in Benghasi the "de facto" government of Libya. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many, if not most, of the "rebels" dont even recognise that self appointed committee. Needless to say, this committee have no consent at all from the population of Libya.

by T Tue Aug 30, 2011 21:28

The coup was planned months before the staged rebel uprising.

See this breaking news with Dennis Kucinich in Congress covering his attack on the government about the planning of this covert operation.

The video is a must see/listen.

Caption: Video Id: BwXHJxOdfyA Type: Youtube Video
REP: Dennis Kucinich on the NATO & US covert operation to rob Libya

by A Freeman Tue Aug 30, 2011 22:06

...and Assad is slaughtering civilians in Syria (over 2200 since March), of course most Irish lefties don't give a sh*t about that since the finger can't be pointed at the yanks or the Jews.

by Lefty Tue Aug 30, 2011 22:22

but we have learned something about US and NATO tactics in recent years. We are not so quick to believe the media lies and stand back and let them invade yet another strategically useful country.

If they really cared about human lives then why not invade some of the oil less countries of no strategic importance where despotic leaders kill even more of their own people?

Or why not go into Bahrain?

The fact remains that it would have taken saddam hussein at least 250 years at his highest ever annual killing rate to even approach the number of deaths caused by the iraq war. He had maybe 20 years left of his reign if completely ignored and no more modern weapons sold to him. And he had absolutely no WMD. Just some crap left by US military for use against Iran in the Iran Iraq war we wanted him to wage.

maybe we are just learning, if somewhat slowly, the way things work

by An DD Tue Aug 30, 2011 23:51

The finger can certainly be pointed at the CIA and Mossad for the uprisings in Syria. They have been funding and arming opposition groups for years there. Seems the plan was that Libya would have fallen about five months ago, and that the NATO oil pirates would have been free to bomb Syria by now. Gaddafi's heroic resistance held up the oil pirates for months. That was bad news for the CIA groups in Syria - who have been left as lambs to the slaughter.

by An Draigneán Donn Wed Aug 31, 2011 00:04

This video tells you all you need to know about why the NATO oil pirates hate Gaddafi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11R56Y0Dx4&feature=youtu.be

by pat c Wed Aug 31, 2011 15:10

The CIA & Mossad have certainly played some role in arming and bankrolling groups in Syria such as the Muslim Brotherhood and other fundamentalists. But lets not forget that Syria is run by a a dictator. There are genuine protesters out looking for democratic rights. Its dangerous to see everyone who opposes a dictator as a CIA stooge. That way we end up on te side of those who deny democratic rights to their citizens.

Just as in Iran the CIA has bankrolled some groups even arming loons who bomb Mosques and behead hostages in Iranian Baluchistan. But that doesn't change the fact that Iran is ruled by a Theocracy and there is a genuine resistance to that dictatorship.

People will rise up against dictators. No support for US/UK/Israeli imperialism and their stooges but no support dictators either.

by An DD Thu Sep 01, 2011 00:49

Certainly there are people in North Africa that would like to see a genuine democracy. But such people would not ally themselves with NATO oil pirates, who deny democracy to the peoples of Europe and America.

by cropbeye Thu Sep 01, 2011 02:27 Cork northside

Citizens at large it is now

highly likely we are in a period of an immanent attack

on Venezuela

by pat c Thu Sep 01, 2011 13:06

"Certainly there are people in North Africa that would like to see a genuine democracy. But such people would not ally themselves with NATO oil pirates, who deny democracy to the peoples of Europe and America"

Indeed. The revolution in Libya has been hijacked. But that does not mean that you take the side of dictators against the oppressed. Also, lack of democracy is relative. Its really not accurate to suggest that people in Europe or the US are as oppressed as those who live under dictatorships.

by War on Terra Thu Sep 01, 2011 13:10

The Nation (Pakistani newspaper) has reported: http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-engl...Libya

The CIA recruited 1,500 members of Al-Qaeda, from Mazar-e-Sharif in Afghanistan, to fight in Libya.

Sources told The Nation: "Most of the men have been recruited from Afghanistan. . . . . They are Uzbeks, Persians and Hazaras... . . . Men attired in the Uzbek-style of shalwar and Hazara-Uzbek Kurta were found fighting in Libyan cities."

Sources in Quetta said: "Some Uzbeks and Hazaras from Afghanistan were arrested in Balochistan for illegally traveling into Pakistan en route to Libya through Iran.".

Aljazeera has reported on the smuggling of Afghans through Pakistan. - What role is al-Qaeda playing in Libya http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/insidestory/201....html

More than 100 Afghans were discovered 20km from the border town of Quetta last week inside a container.

Most of the men were recruits for Libya's NATO-Fiinanced 'rebel' force.

by SWP Thu Sep 01, 2011 13:13

The bullets are still flying in Libya, but the world’s biggest energy companies want to grab the country’s natural resources. Libya holds more oil reserves than any other country in Africa—it sits on more than 40 billion barrels of “black gold”. Giants, including BP, were forced to quit Libya as fighting began earlier this year. Now, they hope to pressure the Transitional National Council into giving them access to their vast reserves.

The Lambert Energy Advisory group can barely contain its glee. “There are tens of millions of barrels down there,” it salivated.
Libya’s oil production was at 1.6 million barrels a day when the uprising began. It then shrunk to just 60,000. Now, Italian firm ENI jostles with Spain’s Repsol and Britain’s BP for the spoils of war. Gaddafi kicked out BP in the 1970s when he nationalised the oil industry.

Our leaders hope that their “success” in Libya will help shake off public anger at the disasters of Afghanistan and Iraq. They want the freedom to use their military muscle as they see fit—and that could mean more conflicts. But the revolt in Libya is far from complete. If the country were to degenerate into fighting among rival tribes and rebels, few in the West would welcome fresh intervention elsewhere.

The ousting of Gaddafi could cause the West new problems if it inspires the Arab Spring to spread. If that were to happen, Nato’s strategy of seeking to control the revolutions through military action could backfire.

Muammar Gaddafi was always strong on radical rhetoric. He said he supported “the people” and “revolution”. He claimed to oppose imperialism and unconditionally backed the Palestinians. In the 1970s and 1980s these repeated messages seduced many on the left internationally and Gaddafi was able to cultivate the image of an intransigent Arab nationalist who supported struggles for change worldwide.

He was in fact a ruthless dictator who crushed every form of dissent in Libya and proved an unreliable ally for most of the international causes he claimed to support.

By the early 1980s Gaddafi commanded an army of some 60,000 in a country of just 4 million people. Young people who resisted conscription were press-ganged into service, according to Amnesty International. Gaddafi also created a large apparatus of police and informers. Some 50,000 people left Libya as refugees.

Much of Gaddafi’s radical reputation rested on his support for struggles abroad. He backed the African National Congress in South Africa, the Sahrawis of Western Sahara, and the Irish Republican movement. His most high-profile commitment was to the Palestinians. He supported various radical factions of the Palestinian movement with money and arms, and at one time trained Palestinian pilots in Libya with the aim of creating the core of a Palestinian air force.

Palestine exposed the hollowness of Gaddafi’s rhetoric, however. He backed Palestinian struggles from afar, never engaging directly, even when Israel savaged the movement. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, Palestinian fighters were forced to evacuate Beirut by sea. Gaddafi’s contribution was to tell PLO leader Yasser Arafat that he should commit suicide rather than leave.

The Libyan government became a major investor in Italy—its former colonial power. Now it bought a large stake in Unicredit—Italy’s largest bank—and built a pipeline across the Mediterranean which supplies a third of Italy’s oil.

Gaddafi embraced Tony Blair, who in 2004 offered him the “hand of friendship”. In 2007 Britain’s largest company—the oil giant BP—announced a huge deal with Libya on offshore gas exploration and the two governments agreed on military co-operation.

How low could Gaddafi go? He soon became Europe’s policeman in North Africa, restricting movements of migrants across the Mediterranean, including the journeys of many desperate refugees from conflict zones in sub-Saharan Africa.

Last year he demanded payments of £4 billion a year to maintain these controls, warning that Europe would turn “black” if migration was not contained. He told European governments: “We don’t know what will be the reaction of the white and Christian Europeans faced with this influx of starving and ignorant Africans. We don’t know if Europe will remain an advanced and united continent or if it will be destroyed, as happened with the barbarian invasions.”

by 'Arab Spring' me arse Thu Sep 01, 2011 17:25

Almost all these 'Revolutions' appears to be controlled Regime Changes, planned

Regime change, brought to you by the US and, of course. Israel, the nation that will benefit the most in the immediate region and beyond.

More Israeli approved messages on Syria: Take for example this latest article in the Telegraph - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/10010240...gist/ by outside elements, mainly the US and Israel.

Imagine the Golan Heights being a part of Israel, dam the international law! Ah, all that water. And more, so much more

In this article we are introduced to the "Likely Chairman of the Syrian Council" - Dr Radwan Ziadeh . Look there he is in a MEMRI clip. You can see it at the Telegraph link above.

I absolutely refuse to put a link to it here.. Surely, readers?

If you don;t know the MEMRI organization I am referring too - it is Israel's propaganda machine. Making it obvious that Dr. Radwan Ziadeh has already been pre-approved by Israel to be an active participant in the "new" Syrian regime.

Pre-approved by Israel.

It looks as if the entire article at the Telegraph has been brought to you by the Neo-con Zionist Cabal. It is presented as an article written by Michael Weiss who is director of the Henry Jackson Society. The "Henry Jackson Society"? Who they? That that got me curious.

That kind of stuff always appears ostentatious and high brow. Notice, I said "appears" that way, because appearances can be deceiving.

Let's check out the Henry Jackson Society, shall we? Oh a "project for democratic geopolitics" This ought to be good!

I am not disappointed, no sireee!!! Check out some of the "International Patrons"! http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/content.asp?pageid=37

The Hon. Secretary Michael Chertoff
Ambassador Dore Gold- Former Foreign Policy Advisor to the Prime Minister of Israel
Dr. Robert Kagan- Senior Associate, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Columnist Washington Post- Contributing editor at the Weekly Standard and the New Republic
William Kristol- Founder and Editor, The Weekly Standard - Blood-Thirsty mouthpiece for the Neo-Con Zionist agenda

And lastly: - The "Prince of Darkness" himself.
- Richard Perle- Assistant Secretary of Defence, United States, 1981-1987

The Neo-con crowd in all their glory. The Zionist crowd. The backers of war on Iraq etc., Names from the past, you may have forgotten, but clearly they are on track with their agenda.

by No to NATO Thu Sep 01, 2011 17:42

NATO Polluting The Water Supply in libya

Caption: Video Id: MTiW13pqk2o Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by Irish Humanist Thu Sep 01, 2011 18:00

Ok, virtually all commenters here are totally against any Western or Nato involvement in Libya as a matter of principle. I would ask people to judge each conflict on its merits. For me the judgement is whether the common people of a country are better off or worse off following their uprising irrespective of who helps them.

It's just factually wrong to suggest that the Libyan uprising was stared by Nato spies or Western intelligence agents - there were many demonstrations against Ghadaffi held in public squares across Libya following on the model of Tunisia and Egypt (before the government began to machine--gun them in the street and subsequently the rebels began to fight). I suppose the stall holder in Tunisia who's self-immolation started all this (and the subsequent demonstrators) were "Nato stooges"?

Why would the West overthrow dictators with whom they were perfectly happy? You all admit that Ghadaffi had made peace with the West and was totally cosy with Berlusconi et al - so how can you now twist this story to fit your constantly fixed, pre-concieved notions? I know you all cannot admit to being wrong (or, shock horror, changing your mind!) but i'm sure in your hearts you recognise that the people of Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Bahrain and all across the Arab world are genuinely striving to become free of dictatorships.

So, please don't attempt to do them down with your invective and critical words. Men, women's and childrens lives depend on the people of Libya being able to create a stable, prosperous and free society and avoiding a bloodbath, inter-communal violence and civil war. Your words can add fuel to any future possible fire. You are all wishing deeply for your words ("civil war is coming") to be shown to be true so you can continue on with your rock solid immutable mind-sets of conspiracies, hidden agendas, 99% of the world's media and journalists being fools and 'bought' by the secret juntas of Big Oil, the Zionist conspiracy, One World Government etc..

Sadly, many who post here have the same views as the hard right wingers in the US who HATE the US government and Obama, as much as you do. Please talk to exiles from all across the Arab world here in Ireland before you judge their families and friends, the vast majority of whom are solidly behind the rebels and all the other "Nato stooges" who daily risk their lives across the Arab world to protest and fight against monarchies and dictatorships.

Many of you say: The dictatorships and monarchies are bad and need to go but anyone who opposes them and also accepts Western help is a "stooge". You are not really interested in the lives of the people in these countries but in your own integrity of analysis about Western Imperialist plots which are being ignored and covered up by the lackey media. The suggestion that journalists in the BBC, Guardian, Irish Times etc are uncritical of their own governments is just simply delusional and laughable.

By the way, all the very, very old story about Oil and robber western governments and corporations just makes no logical sense at all: The Western Oil compaies ALREADY HAD full access to all the oil in Libya, drilling, contracts, extraction, refining etc etc. Why would they conspire to DESTROY THEIR OWN commercial interests? (Oh, sorry, I forgot, its part of the same conspiracy which nearly flattened the center of Western Capitalism (Wall Street) on 9/11 in order to get an excuse to invade Afghanistan! Grow up folks; the West can come up with far less dangerous and less costly excuses in order to have an excuse to invade an 'enemy' country. It's exactly like cutting off your arm in order to have an excuse to attack your neighbour when cutting off a finger tip would perfectly suffice.)

Please have some humanity, some humility and some open-minded love for those who struggle daily in Libya, Egypt, Bahrain, etc across the Arab world. (and yes, I do think the EU and USA should stop supporting the Bahraini and Saudi regimes). Be honest, folks: if the EU/Nato/US imperialist hegemonic nexus started supporting rebels in Bahrain and Saudi (as you all complain they don't do) who would be the first to stand up and cry "foul"? Look in the mirror.

Sadly, I sense much confusion here - half of you think it's good Ghadaffi should go (but we should all just watch from the sidelines) and the other half think Libya was fine under his rule. But you all agree that anything touched by the EU or the US is just, by definition, evil - ie. our whole society is just one big cess-pit of evil - wow! However, Zimbabwe, Syria, Iran and Libya are just hunky dory. I'm afraid my moral compass is somewhat at odds with most of yours. But, then, it's always been easy to be an armchair general, shoot from your ivory tower and shout from the sidelines when you live in the relative comfort (and, yes, freedom) of Europe).

by humanist me arse Thu Sep 01, 2011 18:09

Libya had a huge economic fund that it was using to build and develop Africa.
You can read about that in this interview http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/war-against-libya-an-e...ivity

This fund was created based on the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund
Excerpting relevant sections below-

Voltaire Network: Your country is gas and oil rich. The Libyan Investment Authority manages an accumulated capital estimated at 70 billion dollars. What use are you making of this bonanza?
Mohamed Siala: "We have therefore set up the Libyan Investment Authority to protect the wealth of future generations, following Norway’s example. A portion of these funds are dedicated to the development of Africa. This means that 6 billion dollars have been invested in African development shares, i.e. agriculture, tourism, commerce, mines, etc… remaining funds have been invested in various sectors, countries, currencies all over the world, including the USA and Germany. This, unfortunately, is what enabled them to freeze our assets."

Voltaire Network: Your country has been heavily engaged in infrastructure building, namely the colossal Man-Made River irrigation and water works. Which projects do you currently have in the pipeline?
Mohammad Siala: There is a railway running across the whole of North Africa with the exception of Libya. We would like to complete it so as to achieve a greater integration in the regional economy and energise it. The Chinese are building the Tunisia-Syrte section. The Russians are in charge of the Syrte-Benghazi stretch. Negotiations with Italy were underway for the Benghazi-Egypt connection as well as for the locomotives. Also, we are constructing a North-South transcontinental railroad, starting with the Libya-Chad (N’Djamena) line. These are major investments with an international scope. We thought the G8 would help. It had promised to do so, but nothing came. We are fierce when it comes to business, and we have used the bidding process to oblige providers to bring down their prices. When Putin came here, he agreed to align the rates of Russian enterprises on those of their Chinese competitors, thus enabling us to diversify the our choice of partners.

Voltaire Network: What are the consequences of your assets freeze for Africa?
Mohammad Siala: By freezing our assets, NATO also halted our development activities in Africa.
The continent can only export raw products. We are investing in Africa so that these products can be processed in Africa and commercialized by Africans.
We want to create jobs and keep the surplus in Africa. On one hand, Europeans applaud us as this policy dries out migration fluxes. On the other hand, they are against it since it means having to give up colonial exploitation.
The Westerners want to maintain Africa in a situation where it will only export raw products and commodities.

Ok, so in a nutshell Libya is using the sovereign wealth fund of Libya to develop Africa, for the benefit of Africans. The West is not at all interested in an Africa for Africans!What interests them is an Africa for colonialist/western plunder. Exploitation.

by humanist me arse Thu Sep 01, 2011 18:14

"Be honest, folks: if the EU/Nato/US imperialist hegemonic nexus started supporting rebels in Bahrain and Saudi (as you all complain they don't do) who would be the first to stand up and cry "foul"?"

BUT - they haven't, have they.

The regimes in Saudi and Bahrain are no threat to the Globalist ~US/UK/Israeli agenda

by Chandra Thu Sep 01, 2011 20:37

Gaddafi was one of the main causes of Gaddafi’s downfall. As noted in the JUST Commentary of March 2011, Gaddafi was an autocratic ruler who in the last two decades allowed wanton abuse of power, corruption and nepotism to discredit and destroy his leadership. There was hardly any latitude for freedom of expression in his highly personalised style of governance. Dissenters were imprisoned, tortured or killed.

These were some of the reasons why a sizeable segment of the citizenry turned against Gaddafi and his family. Some of the tribes and clans, respected grassroots religious figures, professionals and even members of his Cabinet and elements within the State’s security apparatus started to desert him from the early days of the uprising. A lot of young people in particular were determined to oust him.

it was NATO’s massive military involvement which brought down Gaddafi. NATO’s bombing campaign--- 20,000 sorties, with more than 7,500 strikes against ground targets--- pulverised Gaddafi’s military infrastructure. And, contrary to official denials, Western military personnel, in unmarked combat clothing, not only provided training to the rebels but also accompanied them in their operations. In other words, there were Western boots on the ground in disguise. In the final assault upon Tripoli, it is alleged that NATO backed officers played a pivotal role in the planning and execution. Without NATO, some analysts have rightly observed, the rebels would not have succeeded in defeating the Gaddafi forces.

The media was also a significant factor. Arabic television channels gave full backing to the rebels. Al-Jazeera was an outstanding example of a television network that went out of its way to campaign for the overthrow of the Gaddafi regime. Arabic newspapers also got into the act. Needless to say, the mainstream Western media made no attempt to conceal its bias. In this regard, it is worth noting that the impact of social media was much less in the case of Libya compared to the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt.

The rejection of despotic dynasties has expectedly strengthened calls for honest, upright men and women in power who are accountable and answerable to the people through fair and free elections, on the one hand, and for the creation of mechanisms that will enhance popular participation in the democratic process, on the other. Equally important, there is outright anger in much of the Arab world against the lifestyles of the powerful: their ostentatious opulence and their hideous extravagance. It is related to a far more significant demand for the reduction of economic disparities and the equitable distribution of wealth and opportunities.

by Irish Humanist Thu Sep 01, 2011 23:11

@humanist me arse.

You say about the West intervening in Bahrain and Saudi: ". . they didn't, did they?" Well, no they didn't.

But I am willing state my position openly: I think they should intervene to help any popular uprising that arises in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia if those states use deadly force to supress unarmed demonstrators (as has already happened in Bahrain, but not yet in Saudi).

So, humanist me arse, are you willing to come off the fence and state your postion?

Are you against any Western help for revolutionary forces in Bahrain and possible future ones in Saudi Arabia?

I will not be in the least surprised if you fail to answer this question (either way you will contradict what you have said before).

You have as your title for your last post: "The merits of a Ghadaffi government vs. a Neo-Lib Globalist puppet Gov't in Libya" From this we must assume you would have preferred if the Libyian people had not arisen up against him. How can you support a 'leader' who is personally responsible for the prison massacre of 1200 unarmed prisoners in 1996? (no matter how many billions he says he will spend in Africa).

You have already written off the future government of Libya (which, if all goes well, will be voted in by the people of Libya) "as a Neo-Lib Globalist puppet Gov't". It's amazing how knowledgeable you are as against millions of Libyian tribal leaders, students, workers, academics, revolutionaries etc who have risked (and suffered) torture and death to free their country.

I am willing to suspend judgement until an election is held, all the horse-trading is finished and a government is put in place by a freely elected parliament. Then we can judge them by their actions. No one on this earth (unless they can tell the future) knows for certain what is going to happen.

by Stop beign so utterly gullible Fri Sep 02, 2011 04:07

Are you against any Western help for revolutionary forces in Bahrain and possible future ones in Saudi Arabia?

I'm totally against western intervention in ANY country outside of the West. 'Western 'Intervention' is nothing but blood-soaked Imperialism. Plain and simple. the West has no business at all interfering in the affairs of other countries. Western Nations have absolutely no right to lecture anyone else in how they run their affairs. The Western Nations have killed more people than any and all of these little tin-pot dictators combined

In fact most of the tyrannical despots in power in the rest of the world for the last 60 years were put in place by those same Western nations. And now you, for some bizarre reason, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary, think the West will suddenly cast off the habits of Centuries and start to actually 'help' these people ? What a joke - a sick deluded joke.

Your silly little utterly childish notion that the militaries and political leadership in Western Nations have some desire to 'help' these people is a total joke, and a very sick and twisted one at that.

You have a really childish view of how the world is ordered.

People like you make me sick. You are the 'useful idiots' that Stalin loved to ridicule.

No doubt because you still believe what the Western Corporate or State Media present to you daily as 'news' is in some way an honest account of events. Nothing could be further from the truth. You obviously learned nothing, not one thing USEFUL, from the events which occurred in places like Iraq and Afghanistan for the last decade.

From this we must assume you would have preferred if the Libyian people had not arisen up against him.

'The Libyan People' did not 'rise up' against him - a small number of people from the east, financed and organised by NATO Nations, took up arms against him. They only did so because they were presumably assured that the might of NATO would be right behind them, and so it was.

But Until NATO dramatically stepped up it Aerial Bombing campaign, the so-called 'rebels' were struggling mightily to take even little outposts on the side of the road in the desert in Libya.

In Tripoli, the largest city in Libya, where a large percentage of the Population resides, there was almost no support for these so-called 'rebels'. They had no useful organisation, worthy of the name, in place there at all. Most of the other Town and Cities on the coast, where almost all of the rest of the libyan population resides, were also not in anyway hotbeds of Anti-Ghaddafi opposition.

Without NATO bombing the crap out of these places, and killing a LOT of Civilians in the process (some Humanitarians THEY turned out to be) before the rebels rolled in, the rebels would have been wiped out in a few weeks.

The Bought&Paid-for propaganda outlets known as the Media were hard pressed to hide, even from the extremely gullible like yourself, the fact that the so-called 'rebels' were only a few small thousand strong. So NATO started bombing ANYTHING that moved as well as bombing any Gov't facility that they could plausibly claim was a Military installation.

Massive and overwhelming Aerial firepower is what NATO brought to bear on the Cities and People of Libya - Ghaddaffi had no answer to that, because of spending all that oil-wealth on Air-fore and Army he spent it on things that actually benefited most of the people of Libya, instead of pouring it into the pockets of Western Arms companies, like the rulers of Bahrain and Saudi Arabia have done

NATO has destroyed a country that had the best and highest standards of education, health care, housing and living standards in all of North Africa. Housing was free, Healthcare also, as well as education. THAT is why the vast majority of the Libyan people did not join in with the small rag-tag band of bought-and-paid-for NATO mercenaries people like you like to call 'rebels'. These 'rebels' have absolutely NO mandate from the people of Libya. None at all

How can you support a 'leader' who is personally responsible for the prison massacre of 1200 unarmed prisoners in 1996? (no matter how many billions he says he will spend in Africa).

I hear this trotted out so many times over the past 6 months by people like you, I have to presume that it's treally the ONLY thing you have to use against him. Massacring a prison load of people is pretty bad, no doubt about it - horrible - but Ghaddafi was in power for nearly 40 years - if that's all you have on him after 40 yrs in power, the he's a veritable Saint compared to the likes of Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 and 2 and Obama, Even Clinton killed far more than Ghaddafi ever did. Carter too.

He's also a saint compared to Blair, Thatcher/Major too. it's chickenfeed compared to the standards set by Western supported and installed Tin-pot dictators - BUT when compared to the death-toll which can be laid at the feet of the Western Nations attacking him, it's a mere drop in the ocean - the Brits, currently bombing Libya., killed hundreds of thousands all over Africa in the last 50 years alone. Who knows how many they killed before that, I don't think anyone was really counting at the time.

The US has directly murdered MILLIONS in the last 40 years and many millions more in conflicts they sponsored 3rd parties to conduct. .

The French have racked up at least 500,000 in their various wars in North Africa and Asia.

Ghaddaffi's a freaking Choirboy compared to any of them.

. It's amazing how knowledgeable you are as against millions of Libyian tribal leaders, students, workers, academics, revolutionaries etc who have risked (and suffered) torture and death to free their country.

What "millions of Libyan tribal leaders, students, workers, academics, revolutionaries" are you talking about - where are you getting this nonsense from? ' There's been no "millions of Libyan tribal leaders, students, workers, academics, revolutionaries' lined up against Ghaddaffi - you REALLY have been watching waaaaaay too much TV.

The only MILLIONS lined up against Ghaddafi has been the Millions and Billions Western Nations spent on their AirForces and Navies which they use to bomb the crap out of Libyan Towns Cities and Civilians

You really should stop listening to fair-tales.

The are no 'Humanitarian heroes', certainly not in the Western Militaries, nor in the halls of any Western Legislature - it was all a slick little charade
There is NO 'Humanitarian Intervention' - there never has been - not now, not ever.

it's all a con-game to convince people like you that all the murdering, all the blood of people with skin darker than yours, spilled after missiles and bullets ploughed through their defenseless bodies, is all in a good cause - you people like YOU fall for it every single time - when will you lot EVER grow up and stop swallowing bullshit?

The politicians and war-mongers must laugh their heads off whenever they read stuff like you've written here.

by FFS Fri Sep 02, 2011 04:41

Before you reply asking how come I know so much about what's going on in Libya . . . while you have been gorging yourself on a steady diet of pure nonsense Fairy-tales and lies from the likes of RTE or Sky News (or even the Irish TImes) I was paying attention to patterns revealed in stories like these, while ignoring most of the content

March 4 2011: Rebels Advance Their Frontline in Brega, Libya - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyBfY7ooyXY

March 26 2011: Libya revolt: Rebels advance from Ajdabiya to Brega - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12872718

April 4 2011: Libya: Rebels move on Brega as Gaddafi aide holds talks http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12957681

April 16 2011: Libya Rebels Advance to Brega - Leader says key oil town within reach http://www.newser.com/story/116523/libya-rebels-advance....html

May 13 2011: Libya Rebels Advance on Oil Town of Brega After Misrata Victory http://worldholes.com/libya-rebels-advance-on-oil-town-...4596/

July 18 2011: Libyan Rebels Advancing Toward Brega, Rebel Spokesman Says http://topics.somaliareport.com/article/04uw8VVckx5iX?q...ghazi

August 6 2011: Libya rebels say they are advancing on Brega http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/06/us-libya-idUS...10806

And theres another stroy revealed in this lot :

Nato warns Qadhafi over use of civilian facilities http://gulftoday.ae/portal/08d10540-d18c-454c-8eaf-ee3a....aspx

Libya accuses NATO of bombing clinic, killing 7 http://www.hindustantimes.com/Libya-accuses-NATO-of-bom....aspx

Libya: bishop denounces NATO bombing of food store http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm...11167

and Brega: NATO bombed "Great Man Made River"factory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTM1gLu4Vkc

Cos that's how the WEST practices humanitarianism - first it accuses Gaddaffi of using 'civilian facilities' so as to plant the idea in the minds of the utterly gullible that nasty Ghaddaffi is not playing fair so NATO, totally against it's own desire naturally, will have to start bombing civilian facilities..

Always very very reluctantly of course, cos every fool knows NATO are "The Good Guys™", right??

And then the Humanitarian West starts bombing the hell out of Civilians - just like they did in Yugoslavia - just like they did in Iraq, just like they will do anywhere the go. It's ALWAYS the other guys fault that poor NATO has to kill all those civilians -and people like ALWAYS make excuses for NATO's murdering innocent civilians, always

by Not So Naive Fri Sep 02, 2011 14:25

There is an attempt to down play the prison massacre. Read about the reality:

Libya: June 1996 Killings at Abu Salim Prison
JUNE 28, 2006
In the summer of 1996, stories began to filter out of Libya about a mass killing in Tripoli’s Abu Salim prison. The details remained scarce, and the government initially denied that an incident had taken place. Libyan groups outside the country said up to 1,200 prisoners had died.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/06/27/libya-june-1996-k...rison
________________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________
Libya: Gaddafi Forces Suspected Of Executing Detainees
Evidence of War Crimes Before Tripoli Fell

AUGUST 28, 2011

HRW emergencies researcher Sidney Kwiram speaks to the BBC as she uncovers dead bodies near Muammar Gaddafi's Bab al-Aziziya compound and evidence of executions in Tripoli.

(Tripoli) – Evidence indicates that forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi killed at least 17 detainees in a makeshift prison as rebel forces began advancing on the neighborhood of Gargur in Tripoli around August 21, 2011, Human Rights Watch said today. According to one witness who survived the killing, Libyan security forces shot the detainees at the Al-Amal al-Akhdar building belonging to the Libyan Internal Security service.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/28/libya-gaddafi-forces...inees
________________________________________________________________________

by NSN Fri Sep 02, 2011 14:46

Amnesty International Report Libya, covering 2010.

The authorities restricted rights to freedom of
expression, association and assembly and repressed
virtually all dissent. Hundreds of prisoners continued
to be arbitrarily detained on security grounds,
including some who had been acquitted by courts or
had completed prison sentences, although releases
were reported. Foreign nationals suspected of entering
Libya irregularly were subject to indefinite detention
and ill-treatment; they included refugees and asylumseekers.
At least 18 executions were reported. The
government failed to disclose the findings of an
investigation into an incident at Abu Salim Prison in
1996 when hundreds of inmates were alleged to have
been killed by security forces, and took no action to
provide justice for victims of gross human rights
violations committed in the 1970s-1990s.

The government maintained strict curbs on freedom
of expression, association and assembly, and
government critics faced arrest and risked
prosecution under laws criminalizing peaceful
dissent, including the Penal Code and Law 71
of 1972. These prescribe severe punishments –
including the death penalty – for activities that
amount to no more than the peaceful exercise of
freedom.

Women’s rights

The law continued to discriminate against women,
notably in relation to marriage, divorce and
inheritance, and polygamy remained allowed for men.
In January, a new nationality law was adopted to
permit Libyan women married to foreign spouses the
right to pass on Libyan nationality to their children on
a similar basis as permitted for Libyan men married to
foreign spouses.

Discrimination – members of the Tabu
community
Members of the Tabu community in south-eastern
Libya faced discriminatory measures. The authorities
refused to renew or issue passports, birth certificates
and other identification documents, and schools in
Kufra municipality refused to enrol some Tabu
students.

Forced evictions of members of the Tabu
community continued in Kufra until early April;
families told Amnesty International that those evicted
were neither consulted about the evictions nor
provided with alternative housing.

Death penalty

At least 18 prisoners, possibly more, were reported to
have been executed, many of them foreign nationals.
In May, a newspaper close to Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi
reported that over 200 people were on death row.
In December, Libya was one of the minority of
states that voted against the UN General Assembly
resolution calling for a moratorium on the death
penaltydom of expression and association.

by Stop exagerating Fri Sep 02, 2011 15:08

There's been NO attempt to 'downplay' ANYTING

All that's happened is that the 'Prison Massacre' has been put in context - if we examine the amount of deaths caused by the Countries arrayed against him, Ghaddaffi STILL comes out looking like a Choirboy compared to the MILLIONS which the US, UK France etc are responsible for murdering - your pretence that I am trying to 'downplay' anything is a lie - in fact if anyone is trying to 'downplay' anything it is people like YOU.

You are attempting to dismiss the MILLIONS that the NATO countries have murdered just while Ghaddaffi has been in power while accusing me of doing what you are actually doing - that takes quite an ability for self-deception and an willingness to outright lie.

BTW: as regards the list of Human Rights violations - Any one that thinks, even for one second, that things are not going to get a whole lot worse now that Ghaddafi is gone, needs their head examined. Have you been paying ANY attention to the type of cut-throats and fundamentalist fanatics of which the NATO-Financed gang of mercenaries is composed? Really?

I never claimed that Ghaddafi was a saint - but he's nowhere near as corrupt as what's coming

by NNS Fri Sep 02, 2011 15:16

I excused no imperialist atrocities. Nor did I tell any lies. Please accept that not everyone who disagrees with you is a NATO stooge.

by FFS Fri Sep 02, 2011 15:32

You claim that HRW accuses Ghaddafi and act as if ghaddaffi's actions put him outside the realm of Humanity - yet you purposefully ignore that right here in this very thread have been published photos, eyewitness accounts, and Links to online videos, which show that the so-called 'rebels' have murdered fr more than 17 detainees.

The strreets of Tripoli are littered with the bodies of Black Africans, most of them murdered by the so-called 'rebel' forces. Yet not a words from you about that

BTW HRW, who produced the report you linked to. has been totally discredited in Libya after it accused Libyan Arny of attacking Misrata with 'Cluster Bombs'.

Even at the time there was quite a bit of scepticism of the charge, but after an investigation of the type of munitions used, it turned out that they were of Spanish origin, of a type which the Libyan Army had NEVER possessed.

The only people tin the vicinity that HAD possessed those munitions were the NATO forces arrayed against the Libyan Army.

HRW has NEVER apologised nor admitted that there might even be grounds for questioning it's false claim.

In this instance HRW just manufactured some propaganda for NATO - it does that from time to time - For example: HRW analyst Marc Gerlasco, who went right from working in the Pentagon to working for HRW (some 'Humanitarian' eh?) , also did something similar during the Georgia/Russia conflict a few years ago- He claimed that mortars found in Gerogia which killed a lot of civilians, were fired by Russia, but when examined the Mortars were Clearly of Israeli origin and had been supplied to Sackashvilli's forces by Israel - they looked nothing like Russian mortars and uniquely like Israeli mortars , so it is impossible to confuse them with Russian ones.

HRW is not the paragon of virtue YOU seem to think it is.

And it relies heavily on PEOPLE LIKE YOU to continues to spread it's propaganda.

by FFS Fri Sep 02, 2011 15:38

You did say that I was attempting to 'downplay' the Prison Massacre - when I did nothing of the sort - I merely showed it in context against the Crimes of the NATO countries, who have murdered MILLIONS and who you have not had one word of criticism for.

So DO please try to be truthful next time, and I promise, if you are more truthful next time, not to accuse you of being untruthful.

by SWPer Fri Sep 02, 2011 21:04

The West says it has learned lessons from Iraq, where chaos followed the removal of all state authority. So in Libya it plans continuity—by keeping Gaddafi loyalists in place.

The strategy is already creating problems for the governing Transitional National Council (TNC). Following Nato’s plan, it looks set to appoint Albarrani Shkal as the head of security in Libya’s capital Tripoli. He was the general who led Gaddafi’s assault on the city of Misrata.

The president of Misrata’s council, Sheikh Khalifa Zuwawi, said Misratan troops controlling many strategic points across Tripoli may refuse to obey the TNC as a result. “We won’t follow his orders,” Walid Tenasil, a Misratan fighter in Tripoli, said.

Already some TNC leaders are worried about being seen as too much in the pocket of Nato. Mohammed al-Alagi said on Friday a post-Gaddafi government would “not give any Libyan citizen to the West”.

Nato leaders concerned about whether they can control the new government have raised the issue of putting troops on the ground for “stabilisation”.

But earlier this year in both Tunisia and Egypt masses of ordinary people set up neighbourhood committees. These are a peaceful, democratic way to stop violence and chaos.

Workers control!

by Irish Humanist Fri Sep 02, 2011 21:30

Hi, “humanist my arse” or “Stop beign so utterly gullible” or “stop exaggerating” or whatever name you are using this hour (are you FFS?):

If the west had not intervened and Ghadaffi was still machine gunning protesters in squares across his country you would be on the side of the rebels and complaining that the West’s lap dog was massacring his own people and the Western powers were complicit in it (as they would have been, considering how pally he was with Berlusconi, Blair and Sarkosy). Remember: Berlusconi promised Ghadaffi 5 billion Euros to stop any African person getting across the Med to poor old Europe! And Ghadaffi accepted, and you love him. Sorry, don’t like your friends.

You say: “he's a veritable Saint (Ghadaffi) compared to the likes of Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 and 2 and Obama”
For you to judge every situation of today by what corrupt politicians of yesteryear did (Bushes, Blair, Nixon, Carter . . ) is not good rational investigation or journalism. I am not going to judge the actions of today’s Russia or China by what Kruschev, Gorbachov, Mao or Deng did in the sixties, seventies or eighties.

You say: “In fact most of the tyrannical despots in power in the rest of the world for the last 60 years were put in place by those same Western nations. And now you, for some bizarre reason, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary, think the West will suddenly cast off the habits of Centuries and start to actually 'help' these people ? What a joke - a sick deluded joke.”

This shows your confused logic here. You suggest that the West is not helping to overthrow a “tyrannical tinpot dictator” which, I will admit, it has been supporting of late. But your problem seems to be that the West is doing just that, and you don’t like it one bit (might go against one of our long, ( yawn..) long-held theories of how the world really works.)

It would seem that only you and a select few super knowledgeable geniuses are aware of what is really going on ‘behind the scenes’, and almost all of the hundreds of thousands of professional journalists worldwide who are on the ground questioning and investigating politicians, officials, generals, etc are just deluded stooges whose findings and reports we should ignore.

As regards your abusive name-calling:
“Your silly little utterly childish notion that the militaries and political leadership in Western Nations have some desire to 'help' these people is a total joke, and a very sick and twisted one at that. You have a really childish view of how the world is ordered. People like you make me sick. You are the 'useful idiots' that Stalin loved to ridicule. “
well, I’m sorry but it just reflects on your maturity and petulance and is not a substitute for reasoned argument. However, I’ll carry on for a bit and then I’ll be off to get on with other reasoned arguments.

You say: “'The Libyan People' did not 'rise up' against him - a small number of people from the east, financed and organised by NATO Nations, took up arms against him. They only did so because they were presumably assured that the might of NATO would be right behind them, and so it was. But Until NATO dramatically stepped up it Aerial Bombing campaign, the so-called 'rebels' were struggling mightily to take even little outposts on the side of the road in the desert in Libya. “

Your facts are just wrong again here. The people who rose up freed Benghazi, the second city of Libya, from Ghadaffi’s rule before Nato got involved in the conflict. International NGOs stated that about 3,000 people were killed (the majority by Official Ghadaffi forces) in the very one-sided repression before Nato intervened.

Yes, I’m sorry, but my sources here are BBC, Guardian, Irish Times, HRW, Amnesty, AlJazeera etc (all Nato/US/UK Oil Cartel/Zionist/G8/Masonic/OneWorldGovernment stooges).

I have been reading some of your sources (well, the sources of many who comment here on IndyMedia.ie who make very similar comments to yours) and I just find their self-contradictions, self-referencing and believing in any single unsubstantiated source not to be very convincing at all.

Just read the interview on MediaBite.org with Gilad Azmon and Miriam Cotton and you will have some nice amusement (it’s actually quite comical and surreal . . . )

http://www.mediabite.org/article_Israel-and-its-influen....html

It seems that, although she tries to outdo him in “I’m more left-radical than you” with some strong anti-Nato/Zionism/US etc views, he tells her she is a Western pampered Nato stooge! (because she has the impudence to suggest that FGM might be unpleasant for women and she doesn’t ‘respect God’ and ‘Allah’ – how dare she!) I assure you it’s a great read! He tells all left activists to embrace and support all radical Islamist movements because they oppose Israel/US/UK etc.. I’m afraid all you who believe in the “AlQueda/Bin Laden are CIA stooges” conspiracy tale (as many on here do) – You are all also CIA/Nato/Zionist stooges! It reminds me of a bunch of worm-infested dogs chasing their own tails (and no, I’m not calling any human a dog . . just an image I have in my mind)

You say: “you REALLY have been watching waaaaaay too much TV”
I would bet you watch (literally) at least a hundred times as many hours of TV as I do (maybe a thousand times as much?)
– I watch about 4 hours a year, if I’m unlucky (and that’s not a misprint)
Ok, I’ll admit to about another 8 hours or so of AlJazeera online . . .

More info about Ghadaffi:

The African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights (oh no, not more Nato/US/UK/Zionist stooges!)
have brought a case against Ghadaffi in the Human Rights Court of Africa:

The African Court on Human and Peoples' Rights complements the protective mandate of the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights.
The Court has the competence to take final and binding decisions on human rights violations. Currently the following twenty six (26) African Union Member States have ratified the Protocol establishing the Court: Algeria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cote d’Ivoire, Comoros, Congo, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Kenya, Libya, Lesotho, Mali, Malawi, Mozambique, Mauritania, Mauritius, Nigeria, Niger, Rwanda, South Africa, Senegal, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia and Uganda. Click here for the details on the dates of signature and ratification.

http://www.african-court.org/en/news/press-releases/

Application No. 004/2011
African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights v. Great Socialist People's
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
Summary of facts
1. The application is submitted by the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights (the Applicant) against the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab
Jamahiriya (the Respondent).
2. According to the Applicant, it received successive complaints against the
Respondent alleging that, following the detention of an opposition lawyer,
peaceful demonstrations took place on the 16th of February 2011 in the Eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, that on the 19th of February 2011, there were other demonstrations in Benghazi, Al Baida, Ajdabiya, Zayiwa and Derna, which were violently suppressed by security forces who opened fire at random on the demonstrators killing and injuring many people, that Respondent’s security forces engaged in excessive use of heavy weapons and machine guns against the population, including targeted aerial bombardment and all types of attacks, and that these actions amount to serious violations of the right to life and to the integrity of persons, freedom of expression, demonstration and assembly."

Finally, I promise,

please read this article by another Western Imperialist stooge (Alexander Cockburn of CounterPunce.org)

From CounterPunch.org The 9/11 Conspiracists: Vindicated After All These Years?
by ALEXANDER COCKBURN
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/the-911-conspira...ears/

"9/11 conspiracism, perhaps at last somewhat on the wane, penetrated deep into the American left. It has also been widespread on the libertarian and populist right, but that is scarcely surprising, since the American populist right instinctively mistrusts government to a far greater degree than the left, and matches conspiracies to its demon of preference, whether the Internal Revenue Service, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Black Helicopters or the Jews and now Muslims.
These days a dwindling number of leftists learn their political economy from Marx. Into the theoretical and strategic void has crept a diffuse, peripatic conspiracist view of the world that tends to locate ruling class devilry not in the crises of capital accumulation, or the falling rate of profit, or inter-imperial competition, but in locale (the Bohemian Grove, Bilderberg, Ditchley, Davos) or supposedly “rogue” agencies, with the CIA still at the head of the list. The 9/11 “conspiracy”, or “inside job”, is the Summa of all this foolishness.
The conspiracy virus is an old strand. The Russians couldn’t possibly build an A bomb without Commie traitors in the U.S.. The Russians are too dumb. Hitler couldn’t have been defeated by the Red Army marching across Eastern Europe and half Germany. Traitors let it happen. JFK couldn’t have been shot by Oswald — it had to be the CIA. RFK couldn’t have been shot by Sirhan–it had to be the CIA. There are no end to examples seeking to prove that Russians, Arabs, Viet Cong, Japanese, etc etc couldn’t possibly match the brilliance and cunning of secret cabals of white Christians.
Michael Neumann, a philosopher, and CounterPunch contributor, at the University of Trent, in Ontario, remarked in a note to me:
“I think the problem of conspiracy nuttery has got worse, and is part of a general trend. There really were serious questions about the Kennedy assassination, an unusual number of them, and it wasn’t too crazy to come to the wrong conclusion. There wasn’t a single serious question about 9-11. The main engine of the 9-11 conspiracy cult is nothing political; it’s the death of any conception of evidence.
“This probably comes from the decline of Western power. Deep down, almost everyone, across the political spectrum, is locked in a bigotry which can only attribute that decline to some irrational or supernatural power. The result is the ascendency of magic over common sense, let alone reason.”
Yet some have discovered a silver lining in the 9/11 conspiracism. A politically sophisticated leftist in Washington, DC, wrote to me, agreeing with my ridiculing of the “inside job” scenarios, but adding, “To me the most interesting thing (in the US) is how many people are willing to believe that Bush either masterminded it [the 9/11 attacks] or knew in advance and let it happen. If that number or anything close to that is true, that’s a huge base of people that are more than deeply cynical about their elected officials. That would be the real news story that the media is missing, and it’s a big one.”
“I’m not sure I see the silver lining about cynicism re government,” I answered. “People used to say the same thing about the JFK conspiracy buffs and disbelief in the Warren Commission. Actually, it seems to demobilize people from useful political activity. If the alleged perpetrators are so efficiently devilish in their plots, all resistance is futile. 9/11 conspiracism stemmed from despair and political infantilism. There’s no worthwhile energy to transfer from such kookery. It’s like saying some lunatic shouting to himself on a street corner has the capacity to be a great orator."

by NSN Sat Sep 03, 2011 14:20

Gaddaffi was hand in glove with the CIA & MI6. Rendition and torture of prisoners. It'll be a bit difficult for his cheerleaders to get around this one.

"Messages found in his office show how MI6 gave details of dissident exiles to Gaddafi – and how the CIA used regime for rendition

Secret files have been unearthed by The Independent in Tripoli that reveal the astonishingly close links that existed between British and American governments and Muammar Gaddafi.

The documents chart how prisoners were offered to the Libyans for brutal interrogation by the Tripoli regime under the highly controversial "rendition" programme, and also how details of exiled opponents of the Libyan dictator in the UK were passed on to the regime by MI6.

The papers show that British officials actually helped write a draft speech for Colonel Gaddafi while he was trying to rehabilitate his regime from the pariah status to which it had sunk following its support for terrorist movements. Further documents disclose how, at the same time, the US and UK acted on behalf of Libya in conducting negotiations with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

With the efforts they had expended in cultivating their contacts with the regime, the British were unwilling, at times, to share their "Libya connection" with the closet ally, the US. In a letter to his Libyan intelligence counterpart, an MI6 officer described how he refused to pass on the identity of an agent to Washington.

The documents, many of them incendiary in their implications, were found at the private offices of Moussa Koussa, Col Gaddafi's right hand man, and regime security chief, who defected to Britain in the days following the February revolution. "

by French Farce Sat Sep 03, 2011 15:19

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MI01Ak02.html
By Pepe Escobar

Surveying the Libyan wasteland out of a cozy room crammed with wafer-thin LCDs in a Pyongyang palace, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea's Dear Leader, Kim Jong-il, must have been stunned as he contemplated Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's predicament.

"What a fool," the Dear Leader predictably murmurs. No wonder. He knows how The Big G virtually signed his death sentence that day in 2003 when he accepted the suggestion of his irrepressibly nasty offspring - all infatuated with Europe - to dump his weapons of mass destruction program and place the future of the regime in the hands of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

Granted, Saif al-Islam, Mutassim, Khamis and the rest of the

Gaddafi clan still couldn't tell the difference between partying hard in St Tropez and getting bombed by Mirages and Rafales. But Big G, wherever he is, in Sirte, in the central desert or in a silent caravan to Algeria, must be cursing them to eternity.

He thought he was a NATO partner. Now NATO wants to blow his head off. What kind of partnership is this?

The Sunni monarchical dictator in Bahrain stays; no "humanitarian" bombs over Manama, no price on his head. The House of Saud club of dictators stays; no "humanitarian" bombs over Riyadh, Dubai or Doha - no price on their Western-loving gilded heads. Even the Syrian dictator is getting a break - so far.

So the question, asked by many an Asia Times Online reader, is inevitable: what was the crucial red line crossed by Gaddafi that got him a red card?

'Revolution' made in France
There are enough red lines crossed by The Big G - and enough red cards - to turn this whole computer screen blood red.

Let's start with the basics. The Frogs did it. It's always worth repeating; this is a French war. The Americans don't even call it a war; it's a "kinetic action" or something. The "rebel" Transitional National Council" (TNC) is a French invention.

And yes - this is above all neo-Napoleonic President Nicolas Sarkozy's war. He's the George Clooney character in the movie (poor Clooney). Everybody else, from David of Arabia Cameron to Nobel Peace Prize winner and multiple war developer Barack Obama, are supporting actors.

As already reported by Asia Times Online, this war started in October 2010 when Gaddafi's chief of protocol, Nuri Mesmari, defected to Paris, was approached by French intelligence and for all practical purposes a military coup d'etat was concocted, involving defectors in Cyrenaica.

Sarko had a bag full of motives to exact revenge on The Big G.

French banks had told him that Gaddafi was about to transfer his billions of euros to Chinese banks. Thus Gaddafi could not by any means become an example to other Arab nations or sovereign funds.

French corporations told Sarko that Gaddafi had decided not to buy Rafale fighters anymore, and not to hire the French to build a nuclear plant; he was more concerned in investing in social services.

Energy giant Total wanted a much bigger piece of the Libyan energy cake - which was being largely eaten, on the European side, by Italy's ENI, especially because Premier Silvio "bunga bunga" Berlusconi, a certified Big G fan, had clinched a complex deal with Gaddafi.

Thus the military coup was perfected in Paris until December; the first popular demonstrations in Cyrenaica in February - largely instigated by the plotters - were hijacked. The self-promoting philosopher Bernard Henri-Levy flew his white shirt over an open torso to Benghazi to meet the "rebels" and phone Sarkozy, virtually ordering him to recognize them in early March as legitimate (not that Sarko needed any encouragement).

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sat Sep 03, 2011 15:24

...you have to be a Gadaffi cheerleader to see the agendas of NATO&Co.
We've all seen the Blair/Sarko/Obama gladhanding and fencemending.
Gadaffi got in from the cold(he thought)just in time as the WOT kicked off the open season on all things un-American in their activities. Ye ol' iron hand of Global McCarthyism, velvet gloves off. Latin America knows the program. Tunisia and Egypt provided the smoke-screen for settling long-festering sores, and upping the democratic crusaders' opportunistic escalation.

The moral posturing and propaganda bombardment of 'civil war' in Libya indicate what we are dealing with. The consensus of our 'free press' confirms the totalitarian agenda.

Pravda=Russian for truth.
The 'west' may have won the Cold War, but the laws of equal and opposite reaction seem to mission creep beyond thermodynamics. Our politburos are gravitating to a mirror dictatorship of nominal 'democratic proletariates'. Democracy is the war-cry, market anarchy, of and for the Social-Dar(win)ians, the actuality. Disrupt, Contain, Extract.

Libya is just minor housekeeping on the way to China(first, roll them back from Africa's resources,their ours) and the neo-con century(s) of the NATO&Co reich.
Willy Brandt wrote the North-South UN report on the projected division to try and forestall the growing polarisation of wealth/destitution back in the seventies. Its been conveniently 'forgotten'.
The irony is, its implementation would begin to address the current crisis of global capitalism with its gastronomical self-digestion through militarised industrialism.

Thems my sentiments(roughly).

by Des - None Sat Sep 03, 2011 15:26

NSN, your faith in the corporate media is touching, if a little misplaced. Are you not aware that president Obama and PM Cameron frown on secret documents being made public, (with exceptions). Just look at what happened to Julian Assange, careful now! Btw, do you know where these 'secret' documents were printed?

by W. Finnerty Sat Sep 03, 2011 15:27

"Stop the lies of NATO"?

If true, and I have to say I would not be entirely surprised if they were largely true, the contents of the video at the address provided below really do seem VERY disturbing (to me at least):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11R56Y0Dx4&feature=play...edded

by FFS Sat Sep 03, 2011 15:47

In 2003 the Telegraph loudly trumpeted that it had found documents which 'proved' that George Galloway took more than $10m (£6.3m) from Saddam Hussein. They were later exposed as forgeries

All the 'respected' media printed these lies uncritically at the time - some journalists THEY turned out to be.

here for example is 'Humanist's' beloved BBC doing so. "Papers Link Anti-War MP to Iraqi Bribes " http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3003825.stm -

Only the cream of British Journalism practicing the height of Journalistic professionalism at the BBC dontcha know.

No cheap hacks in the pay of the British Gov't, to be found THERE, regurgitating cheap propaganda for MI6 , no sireee!

The cheap BBC also uncritically printed the headline - "Iraq files 'show al-Qaeda link'
document" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2979405.stm
Apparently - "Bin Laden's name was erased with correction fluid
Documents found in Baghdad show a link between Saddam Hussein's fallen regime and al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden, according to a UK newspaper. "

again: No cheap hacks in the pay of the British Gov't, to be found THERE, regurgitating cheap propaganda for MI6 , no sireee!

All these documents were complete and utter horsecrap. But the BBC and all the British, and Irish Media printed them anyway, pretending that they were truthful.

When the War Criminal Tony Blair made his famous "Saddam can have access to CBW [chemical and biological warfare] weapons and have them firing into the air in 45 mins" it was all printed with a straight face by the Media in Ireland, Britain and elsewhere. Almost everyone knew it was a bold-faced lie, but they printed ti anyway, because they decided to help their political master sell a war to the people - that is after all one of the main uses of Media - selling crap that they don't want and don't need, to people.

In fact Bush later went on to re-christen CBW's as WMDs to make them sound more scary - and the media uncritically went along with that too.

According to Humanist, such "Professionalism" is to be admired it seems.To me it is the sort of "Professionalism"displayed by prostitutes. And cheap ones at that. Actually I'm probably being unfair . . . to prostitutes.

The average street-walking girl is probably a lot more honest than the average Journalist

And now Mr or Ms "No So Naive" wants to peddle us similar documents 'found' in Tripoli.

If I were you I'd consider a name change - otherwise the Advertising Standards agency are likely to charge you with deliberate false advertising in you choice of name.

by FFS Sat Sep 03, 2011 16:01

In reply to a post of mine, Humanist writes . . .
"I have been reading some of your sources . . . ."

and then proceeds to discuss something SOMEONE ELSE posted because he finds it convenient to some ridiculous strawman argument he wants to make - this is a guy that rambles on about 'Professional Journalists' and how dedicated to the truth they are.

It shows how little respect he has for such notions as 'ethics' and 'truth', that he even brazenly admits what he is doing,

But the icing on the cake was erecting the 9-11 strawman. He feels an article ranting about 'Conspiracy Theorists' 9-11 and Marxism is somehow germane to this conversation.

With such dedication to ethics and truth Humanist would make a find Professional Journalist, indeed, given the sort of behaviour Professional Journalists usually display, as shown in the post above regarding document forgeries, he'd be right at home in the BBC

by The Economist Sat Sep 03, 2011 16:31

"Most of the national councillors, including its chairman, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, and the emerging government’s prime minister, Mahmoud Jibril, are still in Benghazi, citing worries over security, or are abroad."

On 3 September 2011, The Economist reports on Libya: - http://www.economist.com/node/21528299

1. Most of the leaders of the new government are scared to come to Tripoli.
Chairman, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, and prime minister, Mahmoud Jibril, are still in Benghazi.

2. Tripoli's new military commander, Abdel Hakim Bel Haj, has links to al Qaeda.
Abdel Hakim Bel Haj belonged to the Libyan Islamist Fighting Group, regarded as part of al-Qaeda.

3. Despite the propaganda peddled by the media of countries which make up NATO, that this is some sort of 'popular uprising' and NOT a NATO-backed regime-change, the new government's militias are not popular. The people of Tripoli "want them out".

4. Benghazi has around 40 private militias. Many of the militias "have put more energy into protection rackets than into fighting..."

5. People are staying indoors due to a "lack of public services." Tripoli has no running water. Lack of electricity makes the city very black at night.

6. The price of potatoes has risen twentyfold.

7. Salaries are not being paid.

8. The price of petrol has risen from $8 a tank to $200.

9. Banks allow only very limited withdrawals.

10. Many hospitals are closed.

11. The Islamists and many of the returning exiles do not want reconciliation.
Some want to sack Jibril who has talked of reconciliation.
"The public demands fresh blood," says Abdulrazaq Mukhtar, a government minister.
The Islamists want Liamine Bel Haj, a Muslim Brother, as leader.

12. The Islamists are in a powerful position, having the support of Qatar.

13. The Islamists are suspected of killing Abdel Younis Fattah, the rebel commander who died outside Benghazi.

by NOT a cheap BBC hack Sat Sep 03, 2011 16:46

This Pepe Escobar article, a few post above, is interesting in it's entirety http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MI01Ak02.html - but I think a few points could do with highlighting and repitiion for the slow-on-the-uptake.

What I found interesting about it, was the Sarkozy/France/ BANKER angle. As has mentioned on a number of occasions Libya is being plundered. The bankers stand to reap massive windfalls. Not to mention oil company profits. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/01/libya-oil

Consider this a snapshot in the whole scenario of plunder.

"This war started in October 2010 when Gaddafi's chief of protocol, Nuri Mesmari, defected to Paris, was approached by French intelligence and for all practical purposes a military coup d'etat was concocted, involving defectors in Cyrenaica.

Sarkozy had a bag full of motives to exact revenge.....

SO: French banks had told him that Gaddafi was about to transfer his billions of euros to Chinese banks. Thus Gaddafi could not by any means become an example to other Arab nations or sovereign funds Sovereign funds. Libya's Sovereign fund was mentioned earlier in this comment thread.

French corporations told Sarko that Gaddafi had decided not to buy Rafale fighters anymore, and not to hire the French to build a nuclear plant; he was more concerned in investing in social services.

Energy giant Total wanted a much bigger piece of the Libyan energy cake - which was being largely eaten, on the European side, by Italy's ENI, especially because Premier Silvio "bunga bunga" Berlusconi, a certified Big G fan, had clinched a complex deal with Gaddafi.

There is more after this including the mention of Bernard Henri Levy- tool of the the Zio-Con powerblock

You can read that for yourself

France was out of the picture and lowly Italy was making deals with Gaddafi. It seems this might have been enough to drive Sarkozy over the cliff !

And so a "coup" was hatched.

You may recall that Berlusconi balked at the attack on Libya.
It is quite interesting to note that at the beginning of the week- http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/781/italy-wa...layed - Berlusconi was lobbying for a delay on Syrian oil sanctions until December/11.

The Italian government has said that pushing back the implementation of an embargo from mid-October to the end of November would have no real impact on the Syrian government, because contracts for the delivery of oil have been paid in advance through to the latter date. But other member states want the sanctions in place as soon as possible.

Around 90 per cent of Syria's crude oil is bought by EU countries, with half of that arriving at Italian ports. Germany and Italy import 32 and 31 per cent of all Syria's oil respectively. And although Italy's request for a delay was not well received by other member states, one diplomat, quoted by the Financial Times, said that the timing of the sanctions was the only stumbling block and could still be resolved by Friday, when EU foreign ministers meet in Poland.

Then suddenly, yesterday in fact! - Berlusconi under fire for controversial remarks - http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/09/02/italy.be...coni/

Citing phone calls that authorities said they secretly recorded, investigators quoted Berlusconi as saying he's frustrated with investigations of him and eager to leave Italy.

Secretly recorded phone calls, leaked. Curious timing?

"I'm getting out to mind my own f---ing business, from somewhere else, and so I'm leaving this sh--ty country, of which I'm sickened."

It is almost as if the pressure is on...

by FFS Sat Sep 03, 2011 19:38

At last a bit of truth, from Sky news no less - even if it's only the headline "Secret Files On British-Libyan Relations Found By Human Rights" - news.sky.com/home/article/16061971

It turns out that the files Mr or Ms Naive has been peddling in his/her latest comment were uncovered by Human Rights Watch - well fancy that.

Human Rights Watch certainly have been busy little beavers, haven't they?

by FFS Sat Sep 03, 2011 19:43

Another “Liberation”, another Unimaginable International Criminal Tragedy - http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26353

by Felicity Arbuthnot

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. (Oscar Wilde, 1854-1900.)

As Eid, the great post Ramadan celebration of that month of abstinence, self sacrifice and reflection, dawned on Libya, marked there this year on August 31st, the NATO “liberated” country, after seven months, looks a lot like “liberated” Iraq after eight years.

Queues of cars now wait for petrol in another oil rich country; other queues form, carrying containers for water. The multibillion dollar development of Libya’s vast underground aquifers had been dubbed the “eighth wonder of the world. Libya`s water supply infrastructure has been been systematically bombed throught the country.

Shops are without food.

The all is: “absolute disaster”, according to an eminent legal observer, very familiar with the country.

And with electricity largely off, those seeking knowledge as to whether friends and relatives are alive, injured, fled, dead, find internet, and phones dead.

As the terribly injured overwhelm hospitals, many are bombed, damaged or without power and pharmaceuticals.

No power: no incubators, life support machines or surgery.

Another country with a modern, developed infrastructure reduced to a pre-industrial age – with the rebuilding contracts reportedly already being divvied out – in the West.

NATO Members, however, eat, as their bombs destroy humanity and vital necessities for the living. Over a “working lunch”, on the 14th of April, they “deplored violence” and underlined the: “need … to restore water, gas, electricity and other services …”

Still depriving others of the means to cook, or of any semblance of normality, at another “working lunch” (June 8, 2011) they further discussed their: “clear mandate to protect civilians (and) populated areas …taking the utmost care to avoid civilian casualties.” This as: “Tripoli experienced what were perhaps the heaviest daylight bombardments by NATO since the air strikes began in March.” (Guardian, 8 June 2011)

As they masticated and munched, they vowed to bring “a speedy resolution … to put an end to the violence”, under “Operation Unified Protector.” They are delusional and arguably psychotic.

Just twenty four hours later, on the 9th of June, the decade long destruction of Afghanistan eclipsed Libya. NATO Defence Ministers met to declare it: “NATO’s top operational priority.” General David Petraeus, returned from the ruins and about to be confirmed as CIA Head: “explained … progress.”

“A working lunch commenced at 13.00 hours.”

A number of lunches later, on the 23rd August, NATO spokeswoman, Oana Lungesco, re-affirmed their “mandate to protect civilians.”

How this squares with hitting: “over five thousand [official figures] legitimate targets [in a] 24/7 operation [with] over twenty thousand sorties”, is confusing.

The actual number of strikes has not been reported. Its in the tens of thousands.

Equally so is how destruction of services essential to maintaining life, State institutions, schools, hospitals, archeological sites and treasures, attacking of all which is illegal under swathes of international law, are included in this “legitimacy.”

By September 1st, NATO operations from 31st March had reached: “a total of 21,090, including 7,920 strike sorties.” (1)

In context, this latest “shock and awe” brigandage is being rained down by a twenty eight country alliance, on a country of 7 million. The population of Tripoli is over 1 million (or was, until unknown numbers of souls were liberated from their lives in a bombardment which, started with the unleashing of one hundred and ten Cruise missiles, on March 20th, eight years to the day - GMT- of the start of the Iraq invasion.)

Coincidentally, the considerably Western backed and funded “uprising” in Benghazi, which preceded the bombing, began on the 15th of February, the eighth anniversary of millions, in the largest global peace rally in history, from Manchester to Melbourne, Hong Kong to Honolulu, rallying against an attack on Iraq.

The invaders though, have “learned from past mistakes.” The “New Libya”, will not be like the “New Iraq.” It is surely beginning to look chillingly like it. A legitimate head of State again has a million dollar bounty on his head and is “wanted dead or alive.” Since “boots are on the ground” only unofficially, the pack of playing cards with the “most wanted” on, has not yet been printed. But times are hard, and in 2003, the United States Playing Card Company, commissioned by the US Defence Intelligence Agency, received orders for 750,000 of the packs within a week. (2)

Further, if the US and UK were blindly ignorant of Iraq’s social and tribal complexities, those of Libya are more so in orders of magnitude. (3)

Just prior to the Iraq invasion, General Colin Powell was quoted as telling George W. Bush, that after the onslaught: “You will own twenty seven million people, Mr President.”

At the “Friends of Libya” gathering in Paris on 1st September, hosted by Prime Minister Cameron and President Nicolas Sarkozy, a gloating, unnamed British official is quoted in The Economist as saying that: “NATO’s involvement in the Libyan uprising means that now we own it.”

by NSN Sat Sep 03, 2011 19:51

Are you really unaware that Gaddafi made his peace with imperialism? What planet do you live on? Anything you disagree with is a forgery.

SWP say: "Gaddafi embraced Tony Blair, who in 2004 offered him the “hand of friendship”. In 2007 Britain’s largest company—the oil giant BP—announced a huge deal with Libya on offshore gas exploration and the two governments agreed on military co-operation.

How low could Gaddafi go? He soon became Europe’s policeman in North Africa, restricting movements of migrants across the Mediterranean, including the journeys of many desperate refugees from conflict zones in sub-Saharan Africa.

Last year he demanded payments of £4 billion a year to maintain these controls, warning that Europe would turn “black” if migration was not contained. He told European governments: “We don’t know what will be the reaction of the white and Christian Europeans faced with this influx of starving and ignorant Africans. We don’t know if Europe will remain an advanced and united continent or if it will be destroyed, as happened with the barbarian invasions.”"
I suppose the SWP are also part of the Imperialist conspiracy.

Heres what the WSM say:

"Another May 2009 (wiki leaks) cable describes a meeting between the US Africa Command General and the regime, in it is reported that "Al-Qadhafi expressed a desire for cooperation with U.S. Africa Command in the fields of counter-terrorism and counter-piracy." The US embassy also clearly saw Gaddafi's links with Daniel Ortega and Chavez as symbolic bluster rather than a threat, writing after Ortega's 2009 visit that while "Libya is keen to pursue symbolic alliances with anti-U.S. leaders to balance the perception that it has gone western by finalizing the U.S.-Libya claims compensation agreement" there was no depth to this symbolism. Indeed in yet another cable in 2009 the embassy reported that Gaddafi had "been pressing for a broad agreement on security, including a commitment to come to Libya's aid if it were attacked" for several months and advised on how to avoid this issue as the US didn't want that level of commitment.

Although its a minor part of overall support on 11 Sep 2009 'The Telegraph' revealed that members of the SAS were training their Libyan counterparts and that this "will further raise suspicions about exactly what has been agreed behind the scenes between Tripoli and Britain." Given the role of the SAS in ‘shoot to kill’ operations against Irish republicans this should provide food for thought to those who were inclined to support Gaddafi against the rebels.

At the start of the rebellion Amnesty International revealed that the British company NMS International Group Ltd had supplied armored crowd control vehicles "that look identical to ones recently seen patrolling the streets of protest-hit streets in Libya." The imperialist powers had not only supplied him with military equipment prior to the rebellion they had also supplied him with the equipment used to attack protests with 'less lethal' force, as they had with the regimes on either side of Libya in Egypt and Tunisia."
http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/gaddafi-lib...ution

Are the WSM & Wikileaks also part of the imperialist plot?

You are not fooling anyone apart from yourself.

Two Anti Imperialists Meet

by NSN Sat Sep 03, 2011 20:36

This is what they wrote when Condy visited in 2008:

"Condoleezza Rice has just made the first visit to Libya by a serving US secretary of state for more than a half a century. The last secretary of state to make the trip was John Foster Dulles in 1953, before Rice was born.

Conscious that her visit might provoke criticisms in the US, Rice stressed that it “has come after a lot of difficulty, the suffering of many people that will never be forgotten or assuaged, a lot of Americans in particular. It is also the case that this comes out of a historic decision that Libya made to give up weapons of mass destruction and renounce terrorism.”
“Quite frankly, I never thought I would be visiting Libya, so it’s quite something,” Rice said.

But Qaddafi gave up his weapons of mass destruction programme in 2004 when he surrendered his stockpile of mustard gas and nerve gas precursors. UK Prime Minister Tony Blair made a personal visit to Libya only months later.
Since then presidents Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Silvio Berlusconi of Italy have made the journey to Libya. Qaddafi himself has visited France where he pitched his tent on the lawn of the Elysée Palace."

Doesnt look like a revolutionary leader to me.

"Like other nationalist leaders around the world, Qaddafi was concerned to gain a greater share of his country’s oil wealth for the clique that supported him. Initially, some concessions were made to the mass of the population in the form of education and health care, but he suppressed all opposition ruthlessly.
Qaddafi was able to use the conflict between the US and the USSR during the Cold War to exercise some freedom of manoeuvre. He could play one side off against the other. But with the end of the Cold War he has found his way back into the US fold.
He seized the opportunity presented by 9/11 to offer his cooperation in the “war on terror” and backed the US invasion of Iraq. He agreed to pay compensation to the family of policewoman Yvonne Fletcher who was shot and killed outside the Libyan embassy in 1984. He handed over Libyan security agent Abdel Basset al-Megrahi to a special court in the Netherlands where he was found guilty of bombing Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie in 1988. Finally, he agreed to give up his weapons of mass destruction and dismantled what he claimed was a nuclear programme.

For the US and Britain, Qaddafi’s change of heart offered a diplomatic lifeline. It could be claimed that the decision to invade Iraq had paid dividends and that a once pariah state and sponsor of international terrorism had been won over by the threat of military might."

So he made his peace with imperialism.

"Qaddafi has made it clear that he intends to privatize the last vestiges of the welfare reforms that he introduced when he came to power. Electricity and telephone services are to be privatized. Health and education will follow.
“The money that we put in the education budget, I say let the Libyan people take it,” Qaddafi said recently. “Put it in your pockets and teach your kids as you wish, you take responsibility,” meaning that they will have to pay for education in future.
Individual Libyans will be able to enter into joint partnerships with foreign companies. This is a recipe for stripping the assets of the nationalized companies. Qaddafi is following the pattern set by other nationalist regimes that have opened up their markets to international capital. The end result has been to drive the majority of the population into ever deeper poverty and to enrich the tiny elite who hold power to an even greater extent than was possible before."

So how is privatisation a good thing?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/rice-s08.shtml

Now the WSWS have been quoted all the time here as giving the truth about whats happening in Libya.

Will you now say that the above is lies? Well theres plenty more at the site.

by NSN Sat Sep 03, 2011 20:56

You don't trust HRW. I suppose they must be telling porkies in these cases also.

United States: Investigate Bush, Other Top Officials for Torture
Inquiry Into 2 Deaths in CIA Custody Insufficient

There are solid grounds to investigate Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Tenet for authorizing torture and war crimes. President Obama has treated torture as an unfortunate policy choice rather than a crime. His decision to end abusive interrogation practices will remain easily reversible unless the legal prohibition against torture is clearly reestablished.
Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch

(Washington, DC) - Overwhelming evidence of torture by the Bush administration obliges President Barack Obama to order a criminal investigation into allegations of detainee abuse authorized by former President George W. Bush and other senior officials, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.

The 107-page report, "Getting Away with Torture: The Bush Administration and Mistreatment of Detainees," presents substantial information warranting criminal investigations of Bush and senior administration officials, including former Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and CIA Director George Tenet, for ordering practices such as "waterboarding," the use of secret CIA prisons, and the transfer of detainees to countries where they were tortured.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/07/11/united-states-invest...rture

Israel: Stop Discriminatory Home Demolitions
Police Raid Arab-Israeli Neighborhood, Injure Residents

More Human Rights Watch Reporting on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories

Israeli authorities allow buildings that will benefit Jewish citizens while demolishing Arab houses next door. That obviously discriminates against non-Jewish Israelis, but officials haven't given any justification for this clear difference in treatment between citizens.

Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch
(Jerusalem) - Israel should immediately cease the discriminatory demolition of homes belonging to Palestinian citizens of Israel, Human Rights Watch said today. Israel should ensure equal treatment in planning and zoning procedures for its non-Jewish citizens, and carry out demolitions only as a last resort along with compensation or alternative housing arrangements.

"Israeli authorities allow buildings that will benefit Jewish citizens while demolishing Arab houses next door," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "That obviously discriminates against non-Jewish Israelis, but officials haven't given any justification for this clear difference in treatment between citizens."
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/08/israel-stop-discrimi...tions

No rational person would suggest that HRW is aiding the agenda of Imperialism. They just don't 100% agree with you, so you have to demonise them.

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 00:12

Mr/Ms Naive, if you can come up with even a semi-rational expiation of how Marc Garlasco managed to mis-identify Israeli munitions as Russian, in the middle of a Propaganda war which NATO was involved in, when they were clearly identifiable as Israeli, and looked nothing like Russian ordinance, and how HRW in Libya AGAIN managed to mis-attribute Spanish (NATO-Member) Mortars as being fired by Libyan Army force when Libya NEVER had access to such munitions, AGAIN in the middle of a Propaganda war which NATO was involved in, I'd be only too happy to hear it. Until then . . . . . .

The existence of occasions when HRW actually behaves like an NGO called 'Human Rights Watch' should, does not in any way negate or excuse the occasions when they very obviously did not do their job as one might expect an NGO 'Human Rights Watch' to do.

If a so-called NGO were to allow itself to be used as a tool of NATO imperialism, it must first build up some street-cred, so that people like you will be prepared to give them a pass, when they occasionally, and always at CRUCIAL moments, behave as a tool of NATO imperialism.

SO your examples of HRW doing it's job correctly are IMO just HRW building up it's reputation so that people like you will defend them when they very obviously t doing something OTHER than the job they claim they are doling.

As the old adage says: you can fool ALL the people SOME of the time, and you can fool some of the people ALL of the time, but you can't fool ALL of the People ALL of the time.

If they behaved like a NATO-tool of imperialism ALL the time, even YOU might begin to smell a rat. Though at this stage even that seems unlikely

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 00:43

Lizzie Phelan, one of the very few people reporting from Libya that did not follow the NATO-Line, visits Zlitan just a few days before the NATO massacre of at least 85 civilians in Majer, Zlitan.

Both Phelan's Twitter account and Website were shutdown, presumably to prevent her reporting what she was seeing in Libya.

Can't wait until someone can produce the HRW report on this massacre, though something tells me I'll be waiting in vain . . . .

Caption: Video Id: kN_NJJn49mM Type: Youtube Video
NATO massacre of at least 85 civilians in Majer, Zlitan.

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 00:53

I searched and searched (in vain) on the HRW website for some mention of the fact that the NATO-Financed 'Rebels' in Libya are rounding up and sometimes murdering Black-skinned people from Sub-Saharan Africa - http://www.hrw.org/search/apachesolr_search/Libya%20sub...icans - not a bleedin sausage to be found

Libya Rebels Round Up Black Africans
Approximately 5,000 have been detained, some seriously abused, many murdered, with virtually no evidence against themhttp://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/01/libya-rebels-round-u...cans/

by O.I.L. Sun Sep 04, 2011 01:02

Imagine my shock . . . . .

Western Powers and the Oil Prize in Libya - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/01/libya-oil

The starting pistol has been fired on bids by Britain and other western powers to secure a slice of the oil prize in Libya when France said it was “fair and logical” for its companies to benefit.

Alain Juppé, the French foreign minister, planted his flag in the sand as the Guardian was told that BP was already holding private talks with members of Libya’s interim government.

Libya is a vital energy producer, and BP had previously committed itself to spending more than $1bn on exploration plans under Muammar Gaddafi’s government.

Shell was also becoming active before the civil war broke out, as was Total of France, but the conflict over the past few months has brought the country’s existing oil production of 1.6m barrels a day – 2% of the world’s total – to a halt.

Rebel leaders had already made clear that countries active in supporting their insurrection – notably Britain and France – should expect to be treated favourably once the dust of war had settled.

But they were anxious to shut down any suggestion that firm promises had already been made to carve up the country’s only real wealth-providing industry with foreign powers or companies.

The new Tripoli government has denied the existence of a reported secret deal by which French companies would control more than a third of Libya’s oil production in return for Paris’s support for the 'revolution.'

by NOT a cheap BBC hack Sun Sep 04, 2011 01:12

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MI03Ak01.html

French daily Liberation published on its website a letter written only 17 days after UNSCR1973. In the letter, the TNC ratifies an agreement ceding no less than 35% of Libya’s total crude oil production to France in exchange of Sarko’s “humanitarian” support.

The letter is addressed to the office of the emir of Qatar, the go-between for the TNC and France from the beginning, with a copy to then-Arab League Sec-Gen Amr Moussa. The letterhead is supplied by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Libya.

The promise totally matches what an official from an oil company in Cyrenaica said last week: that the “winners” in the oil bonanza would be the nations that supported the TNC from the start. As expected, denials piled up.

The Quai d’Orsay (the French Foreign Ministry) said it had never heard of such a document. Same for Mansur Said al-Nasr, a TNC special envoy to the Paris conference. The TNC’s man in Britain, Guma al-Gamaty, added that all future oil contracts would be awarded “on the basis of merit”. And even energy giant Total had to muscle in; its chief executive officer, Christophe de Margerie, swore he had never discussed oil deals with the TNC.

As if Sarko and Total were altruistic, Rousseau-style humanitarians who would never spare a thought for 44 billion barrels of oil. Total was in Benghazi discussing business with the TNC already last June.

A bitter intra-European “oil war” between Total and Italy’s ENI is already in effect. ENI, active in Libya since 1959, has already signed an agreement with the TNC to be back in business and immediately supply fuel to Libya in exchange for future payment in oil. Total’s push is to secure a much larger piece of the Libya energy pie than it already had, as in future contracts.

by Humanitarian me arse Sun Sep 04, 2011 03:44

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/30000-bombs-over...ibya/

by THOMAS C. MOUNTAIN

After some 8,000 bombing raids, with estimates of 4 bombs used per attack NATO has already dropped over 30,000 bombs on Libya. That’s almost 200 bombs per day for 6 months, some tens of thousands of tons of high explosives. With an estimated 2 Libyans killed per bomb and without a single NATO casualty the Western regimes have massacred over 60,000 Libyans in the past half year with the rebels themselves having said there have been 50,000 Libyan deaths. One hell of a humanitarian intervention isn’t it?

How the “civil war” in Libya has proceeded can best be described in light of the events of August 21. On that Sunday afternoon a BBC film crew showed a rebel column fleeing the approaches to Zawiya outside of Tripoli. With their tales between their legs, glancing fearfully over their shoulders as they fled wildly back down the road from whence they came, even the BBC presstitute on the scene could not contain his disgust at the sight. Once again the rebels had run into stiff resistance and had shown their true mettle by fleeing the fight.

The next morning a France24 reporter recounted how later that Sunday night she had accompanied these same rebels as they drove almost unopposed through Zawiya into Green Square in the heart of Tripoli, this time passing row upon row of bombed out still burning buildings.

This has been NATO’s war and while the world may not understand this, the Libyan rebels certainly do.

A major problem for NATO and its Libyan Quisling League a.k.a the National Transitional Council (NTC) is that most of rebel military is now under the leadership the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), a self described affiliate of Al Queda in the Maghreb (North Africa). The “general” in command of the mainly ethnic Berber rebel fighters that have captured the Libyan capital, known as the Tripoli Military Council, is the head of the LIFG. One of his top commanders is head of the Benghazi based rebel army. With the recent murder of “General” Younnis, former head of the Libyan secret police and once considered the most feared man in the country, the LIFG has now taken over leadership of almost all of the most effective fighting forces of the Libyan rebellion.

Quite an accomplishment and Al Queda in the Maghreb’s sincere thanks must go to the USA and its allies in NATO.

As the former LIFG terrorists turned “freedom fighters” go house to house arresting and executing “Gaddafi supporters” and “African mercenaries” in Tripoli life for the ordinary people of the city has become one of survival. Without water for almost two weeks now, without cooking gas or fuel for their cars and with food in short supply the future for the people of Tripoli remains uncertain.

Some reports in the international media have claimed that the Great Man Made River (GMMR), the irrigation system that supplies northern Libya with almost all its water was bombed by NATO. Other reports claim that “Gaddafi loyalists” still control the southern water wells and have shut off the water supply. If the later is true then even Benghazi’s water supply is in jeopardy. In any case, Tripoli is going to be dependent on imported water for quite some time and how a city of almost 2 million is to survive using water imported via water trucks is a question the western media has stopped talking about.

The “Transitional National Council” now recognized as “the legitimate government of Libya” by NATO governments and their allies is made up of many former high ranking Libyan Government officials and is increasingly caught in a tough spot. With the African Union trying to block the release of Libyan Government funds held in western banks there is little time to spare if this NTC’s control is to remain in place.

South African President Jacob Zuma has condemned the NTC leaders as embezzlers and demanded they return the tens of millions of dollars the NTC top leaderships is charged with stealing during their days in office in the Libyan government before the AU lifts its opposition to Gaddafi government funds being released to the NTC.

NATO leaders are having to scramble to keep the NTC afloat. Images of pallets stacked 6 feet high with 200 million Libyan Dinars flown in from London show just how touch and go it has become for the NTC’s attempts to maintain its influence. While NATO’s “Friends of LIbya” circus held in Paris promises the release of Libya’s $billions held ransom by the west, implementing these promises is another matter all together. Corruption and incompetence mark the NTC leadership’s past and is will come as no surprise to hear reports of massive embezzlement of these funds in the future

How much longer the LIFG/Al Queda lead rebel armies will stand by and allow their former bitter enemies in the TNC to remain in power is the $60 billion question. Already the rebel “government” in the port city of Misrata has announced they do not recognize the authority of the TNC and rally’s demanding the removal of the former Libyan government officials in the TNC have been reported taking place on an almost daily basis there.

In the mean time the vast reaches of the southern Libyan desert has not been conquered by NATO and almost all of Libya’s water and much of its oil remains outside of the control of the NTC.

With hundreds of villages and small towns scattered across an immense area Col. Gaddafi and his supporters still have a vast area at their disposal. With Algeria fighting Al Queda in the Maghreb their border on Libya’s western flank remains open and allows opponents of the NATO backed rebels a safe haven. The NTC has already raised the alarm about a nasty long term insurrection based in southern Libya using Algeria as base.

So far the Al Queda lead rebel fighters and the west’s bully boys in the NTC have yet to begin to eat each other though it seems almost inevitable that internal warfare amongst the rebels will take place. We may yet see NATO warplanes bombing its erstwhile allies in the Libyan rebellion.

The one thing that is clear is that the Libyan Tragedy has just begun and that the capture of most of northern Libya by the NATO backed rebels is just its first phase. 30,000 bombs over Libya killing some 60,000 Libyans marks the beginning rather than the end of this disaster.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:46

..if this is going to continue the mirror to Afghanistan pattern and its overspill into Pakistan by destabilising Algeria in the same way.

If so, Sarko is sure gonna get some local blowback. Which of course will justify a homeland security raft for the European heimat.

by Crazy Cat Sun Sep 04, 2011 13:04

For the interview :

Mahdi Nazemroaya in Malta After Libya ( 01/09/2011) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDR_NBUK8jk&feature=play...edded

Libya is part of the post 911 perpetual war - Mahdi Nazemroaya ( 02/09/2011) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ATTCv3SuA&feature=play...dded#!

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Sep 04, 2011 13:51

..the spreading slurry

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26351

by NSN Sun Sep 04, 2011 14:36

You haven't managed to discredit HRW. Anyone who goes to their site will see that they consistently oppose US, UK and Israeli Imperialism. Your problem is that they also criticise human rights violations by the people you and I support. I don't like their criticism of Hezbollah, Hamas or other freedom fighthers but I accept that sometimes freedom fighters do wrong things.

Here, HRW, criticises the US Client Govt in Somalia:

Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government (TFG) should ensure that its military court respects basic fair trial standards, and should immediately halt executions, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch said today. The TFG should also prohibit trials of civilians in the military court, the organizations said. The transitional government’s international partners should firmly object to these serious human rights violations at the upcoming consultative meeting in Mogadishu.

“Unfair trials and executions are no answer for lack of accountability in Somalia, no matter how politically expedient the TFG may find them,” said Daniel Bekele, Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “Upholding fundamental rights including fair trial guarantees is key to moving forward.”
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/02/somalia-stop-unfair-...tions

The WSM, SWP,SP and WSWS all accuse Gadaffi of working with US & UK imperialism.

Imho the documents found are genuine. Why would the CIA and /or MI6 forge documents which implicate them in breaches of international law regarding torture and rendition? This could involve US and UK politicians and officials being charged before an international tribunal. Not even a child would taken in by your conspiracy theory about the documents being forged.

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 15:23

No as stated, quite clearly, my problem with them is that one at least 2 occasions, HRW have somehow mysteriously, and in my opinion deliberately, mis-attributed blame for a civilian massacre, claiming on both occasions that munitions involved came from one side in a conflict, when in fact only the other side in the conflict possessed, or could have possessed, those particular munitions.

On both occasions it was clear what type munitions were involved and also on both occasions the origin of the weapons was not something that should ever have been in doubt.

Both of these, in my opinion deliberate, mis-attributions of blame benefited the NATO side in the propaganda wars which were raging at the time.

As far as I am aware HRW has never admitted that their attributions of blame were completely wrong on either of these occasions, even though they very clearly were wrong, and it is this that leads me to conclude that their actions and statements at the time were in fact deliberate.

You simply continuing to list occasions where HRW did not act as a NATO-propaganda-tool does not, and never can, eliminate the times when it clearly DID act as a NATO-propaganda tool.

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the existence of such occasions is proof-positive that you are completely willing to ignore this evidence in it's entirety, preferring instead to 'give them a pass' just as I earlier stated that you would do.

I've asked you to address these occasions, to put forward some rationale to attempt to explain this unusual behaviour for an NGO with 'Human Rights' in it's name, and you are refusing to do so, preferring instead to try and deflect the conversation onto HRW report that have NOTHING to do with the evidence I have mentioned earlier.

You can make all the il-iinformed and unfounded accusations you like against me, but it won't erase the fact that on at least 2 occasions HRW has behaved as a tool of NATO-propagand

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 15:34

This is hilariously naive . . .

"This could involve US and UK politicians and officials being charged before an international tribunal"

Really? Ya think so, huh?

Already there is no shortage of evidence with which it indict US and UK politicians, and yet curiously nary a one of them has ever faced charges in front of any 'international tribunal' worthy of the name. No "international tribunal"" with actual power of legal sanction has EVER brought a case, or even considered bringing a case, against a UK or US politician for the crimes of torture or war crimes in general..

And now you want us to believe that these documents which HRW just happened to 'find' are some sort of magic 'smoking gun' which will help some courageous "international tribunal" blow the lid off the corrupt degeneracy which is the US and UK political class? Seriously?

At this stage, for that statement alone, I've a good mind to report you myself to the Advertising Standards agency , for the blatantly false advertising contained in your choice of moniker

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 15:43

in the Libyan case, from the outset HRW actually correctly identified the munitions as being Spanish (a NATO-member country) so they knew both the country of origin and the Manufacturer. They could quite easily have checked with both the manufacturer and with whatever Dept. of the Spanish Gov't deals with Munitions Exports, to confirm or deny for themselves, BEFORE they made any accusations attributing blame to one side or the other, that the Libyan Army ever had possession of such munitions, but for some weird unknown & mysterious reason they did not even manage that most basic of due-diligence requirements.

So either HRW DID check and went ahead and made what was obviously a knowingly false accusation, OR they couldn't be bothered as they were determined to accuse the Libyan Army from the outset - either way HRW quite obviously involved themselves in the propaganda war, on the side of NATO.

by NSN Sun Sep 04, 2011 18:41

Sometimes groups make mistakes but obviously you don't. You keep harping on about the ammunition.

It doesn't change the fact that HRW is a constant pain in the neck to US, UK and Israeli imperialism. I'll give another example at the end. You keep on about the ammo, I'll keep on giving more examples of HRWs anti imperialist work.

It doesn't change the fact that the WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS all state that Gadaffi had collaborated with the US and UK.

You seem to live in a different reality. In this one there is a danger of Bush, Blair & subordinates facing some sort of international tribunal. So why would the CIA & MI6 forge documents that involve them in breachs of international law?

It doesn't make any sense.

But wait! HRW are trying to have Bush & Blair tried before the ICC! So maybe HRW forged the documents to advance their case!

Germany/Saudi Arabia: Don’t Sell Out on Human Rights [1]
Proposed Tank Sale Sends Wrong Signal

(Berlin) - Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany should consider the political signals her government is sending to Saudi Arabia before approving a deal to sell 200 German-made tanks to the kingdom, Human Rights Watch said today. Saudi Arabia has a dismal human rights record and has deployed forces to Bahrain to help suppress pro-democracy protests there.

Saudi Arabia is one of very few countries in the region whose government has offered no human rights reforms in the wake of popular uprisings in neighboring countries since the beginning of the year. Merkel should make a clear and unequivocal public statement expressing concern about Saudi Arabia's human rights record and its role in neighboring Bahrain, Human Rights Watch said.

The German government should, at a minimum, obtain verifiable guarantees from the Saudi government that military equipment Germany exports will not be used in violation of international human rights and humanitarian law prior to exporting the tanks, Human Rights Watch said.

"The sight of Saudi tanks rolling into Bahrain signaled the start of Bahrain's crackdown on peaceful pro-democracy protesters there," said Christoph Wilcke, senior Saudi Arabia researcher at Human Rights Watch. "Saudi reformers may well interpret selling tanks to Saudi Arabia at this time as German support for repressive regimes."
Saudi Arabia has cracked down on the slightest stirrings of domestic reform at home, Human Rights Watch said. Among the serious human rights concerns in the kingdom are the following issues:

http://www.hrw.org/print/news/2011/07/08/germanysaudi-a...ights

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 19:20

Sometimes groups make mistakes but obviously you don't. You keep harping on about the ammunition.

These incidents were definitely not mere 'mistakes'. That you are now trying to present them as such shows only how willing you are, what lengths you will go to, to ignore clear evidence of HRW complicity in NATO-propaganda

In both cases the origin of the ammunition proves it - the fact that you are trying to dismiss the evidence as merely 'harping on about ammunition' shows your willingness to ignore clear evidence of HRW acting as a propaganda tool of NATO

In both cases the origin of the ammunition is THE KEY - it's what they used to point the finger at both Russia and Libya in the first place - In both cases HRW claimed to have examined the munitions and concluded that they were fired by the Russian side in one case, even though they were Israeli manufactured and known that Israel was supplying munitions to the Georgians, and in the other case the munitions were manufactured by a NATO-Member, and there was a clear trail of ownership of those munitions which DID NOT lead to Libya.

HRW already knew the mortars were Spanish. Their own press release said so. Therefore HRW already knew that the Libyans could not have had access to those Cluster-Bombs and could not have been the ones to fire them, murdering a large number of civilians

The 'news' the Libyan forces were accused by HRW of firing Cluster-bombs at civilians was, was headline grabbing stuff back in June of this year. It was used to paint the Libyan leader as a monster that would massacre civilians, as someone that would have no hesitation in using banned weapons.

The fact that it was NATO or their proxy forces that fired them never made it to the headlines once it became clear the HRW was talking nonsense - THAT is how propaganda works - that this needs to be explained to you is says more about you, and your own naivety, than anything I could throw at you

HRW claimed the munitions were fired by Russian and Libyan forces- but when photos of the ammunition used in both incidents, photos provided, in the Libyan case, by HRW itself as 'evidence' of Libyan culpability, were examined it turned out that HRW was presenting a pile of crap to back up it's accusations.

It became obvious to any honest person that the HRW accusations simply could not be true, and that HRW was on fact presenting a version of events that was 180 degrees turned around from reality

In BOTH cases the ammunition used could not have come from those accused - since neither of the accused parties could have obtained such munitions in the first place.

Not only that but any examination of the munitions carried out by an honest person would have HAD TO conclude that, in the case of the Russians, that it HAD TO BE the Georgians who fired the munitions, and in the Libyan case that it HAD TO BE either covert NATO Forces, already known to be active in Libya, that fired them, or that the NATO-Financed mercenaries were supplied them and that they fired them.

No other conclusions could have been possible unless the person tasked with arriving at those conclusions was dishonestly using HRW's street-cred as a cloak to spread some propaganda about who carried out these civilian massacres which benefited the NATO side

Either way, HRW was clearly lying, and must have known it was lying , when it made it's accusations.

No honest person could have 'accidentally' mis-attributed blame in the way the HRW did.

Your pretense that it was all a 'mistake', and that it should just be brushed under the carpet, is a joke,

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 19:28

WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS

Did the WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS examine the HRW 'evidence' -

have the WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS made any statement regarding HRW false accusations against the Russian and the Libyans? -

cos if not I'm at a loss to explain why you keep mentioning them - other than as some sort of shield to protect yourself from what should be obvious to anyone that actually has examined this incidents.

You can pretend that WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS have been appointed, by who-the-hell-knows-who, to give the definitive opinion on HRW if you wish, but you're kidding yourself if you think you can convince anyone else that WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS are the final arbiters on this issue.

WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS opinion of HRW matters not one bit to me, because unlike you I form my own opinions after examining the evidence available to me -

I do not rely on WSM, SWP, SP, WSWS to validate my opinions for me, ta very much

by NSN Sun Sep 04, 2011 19:38

You keep on harping on about this. It'll be a while before we know the entire truth about atrocities on both sides or who used what ammunition but you have your mind made up already.

What do you gain by smearing HRW? There may be a few more conspiracy theorists reading this story but no rational person will believe that HRW planted forged documents or that HRW supports Imperialism.

Instead of fighting imperialism you (like a conspiracy theorist) attack an organisation which is trying to get Bush & Blair charged with war crimes.

HRW opposes US restrictions on travel to Cuba:

.Cuba: Letter to US House Appropriations Committee [1]
Safeguard Purposeful Travel to Cuba

The Honorable Harold Rogers, Chairman
The Honorable Norm Dicks, Ranking Member
House Committee on Appropriations
U

Dear Congressmen Rogers and Dicks:

I write to you with respect to the House Committee on Appropriations' debate on the FY 2012 Financial Services Bill. In the context of the bill's markup, Human Rights Watch would like to reiterate its support for OFAC travel regulations that allow for "purposeful travel" to Cuba by academic, religious, and cultural groups, as well as for regulations that allow Cuban Americans to travel freely to Cuba and send remittances to their families on the island.

A Human Rights Watch report, Families Torn Apart [2], documented the human cost of tightened US restrictions on travel by Cuban Americans, which were enacted from June 2004 to April 2009. The report found that the restrictions infringed upon the internationally recognized right to freedom of movement, violated the international prohibition on the involuntary separation of families, and exacted a deep emotional toll on Cuban American families.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/22/cuba-letter-us-house...ittee

by NSN Sun Sep 04, 2011 19:45

FFS

The WSM, SWP, SP and WSWS rerresent something on the anti imperialist left. The Irish Anti War Movement also wouldn't support Gadaffi. Their opinion counts for something. Yours does not. I am unaware of anyone on the left who shares your opinion of Gadaffi as an anti imperialist.

Your opinion however is just that: your personal opinion.

TRO

I was referring to the nonsense about Gadaffi giving so much to his people.

Some interesting stuff on your site.

by FFS Sun Sep 04, 2011 20:06

you're still refusing to address the actual incidents themselves..

You are now pretending that these false accusations are attributable to 'the fog of war'.

This is not even remotely plausible, given that HRW used Military experts who had to have known that the munitions in question were Israeli, in one case, and Spanish in the other, since in both cases the munitions were clearly marked as such.

You are still posting info on HRW statements which are completely unrelated to the incidents I have mentioned.

I can only presume, that knowing you have no real defence you are trying to distract from that by using this completely unrelated information regarding HRW statements as some sort of defence for HRW -

Your examples have nothing to do with the incidents under discussion - no one has said that HRW has supported a ban on travel to Cuba,

You are in effect attempting to construct an army of strawmen to disguise the fact that you cannot come up with a plausible rationale that explains HRW's actions in these specific incidents, while at the same time exonerating them of helping spread NATO-propaganda in these specific incidents.

Your complete refusal to address these incidents of HRW spreading NATO-propaganda, other than a lame attempt to dismiss them as mere 'mistakes' despite the ludicrousness of such a 'conclusion', is duly noted, Mr/Ms Niave.

by TRO Sun Sep 04, 2011 20:11

TRO

I was referring to the nonsense about Gadaffi giving so much to his people.

So you ARE denying that Quadafi set up systems for Free education, free housing, free healthcare. that he setup the Great Man Made River project to benefit the Libyan people?

The he generally , as the woman in the video stated, 'spread the oil wealth 'horizontally', rather than 'vertically'?

Because otherwise your statement makes no sense at all.

by NSN Sun Sep 04, 2011 20:19

In your opinion HRW are pushing NATO propaganda, I'm sure that they believe they are doing the correct thing. I differ.

I'm publishing the other stuff to show that HRW are not NATO stooges. only a very silly person would believe your attacks on HRW.

Your views as a whole are chaotic, those of a conspiracy theorist no Left group or anti war organisation would accept that Gadafi is an anti imperialist.

by Rick Decard Sun Sep 04, 2011 20:36

Anti War Activist Marinella Correggia coments on Russia Today about the documents which seem to be incriminating. But she warns that NATO might turn on the Rebels.

Documents found in Tripoli have pointed to close co-operation between Gaddafi's regime and Western intelligence agencies. Activist Marinella Correggia says it is no surprise that countries which had ties to Gaddafi have turned against him.

“It is the common politics of Western powers – they do what they think is better for them,” said Correggia, an activist with Ecopeace. “The biggest US enemy, Osama bin Laden, was their friend at the beginning, in Afghanistan. Italy relied on the Libyan regime against Islamist groups. Now they think they can control these Islamist groups because they gave them military support and money. Now the West prefers to side with Islamist and racist groups.”

Correggia also maintained that we might see NATO turn against the rebels if they do not fulfill expectations.

“NATO will put pressure on the rebels because they are very much dependant on NATO and the West,” she explained. “They will threaten them, they will not give them enough money.”

The new Libyan leadership announced that work should resume at two oil fields by next week; five foreign companies already work the fields. Libya's future relies on getting that industry in full swing again, and it has to have some external help. But according to Correggia, it will soon change.

“Now the [new Libyan leadership] can have a much better deal, there will be a lot of fighting between Western powers,” she said. “The main Italian newspaper said Italy did not do enough in the war and France will profit more. This is a dirty war. And it is not yet over.”

by Rick Decard Sun Sep 04, 2011 20:49

heres one of the texts

Full text of a CIA document indicating UK role in rendition of a terror suspect
'We are aware that your service has been cooperating with the British to effect Abu Munthir's removal to Tripoli'
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 4 September 2011 19.41 BST

"Our service has become aware that last weekend LIFG deputy Emir Abu Munthir and his spouse and children were being held in Hong Kong detention for immigration/passport violations. We are also aware that your service has been cooperating with the British to effect Abu Munthir's removal to Tripoli, and that you had an aircraft available for this purpose in the Maldives.

Our understanding is that the Hong Kong special wing (SW) originally denied permission for your aircraft to land in Hong Kong to enable you to assume control of Abu Munthir and his family. However, we believe that the reason for the refusal was based on international concerns over having a Libyan-registered aircraft land in Hong Kong. Accordingly, if your government were to charter a foreign aircraft from a third country, the Hong Kong government may be able to coordinate with you to render Abu Munthir and his family into your custody.

If payment of a charter aircraft is an issue, our service would be willing to assist financially to help underwrite those costs. Please be advised that if we pursue that option, we must have assurances from your government that Abu Munthir and his family will be treated humanely and that his human rights will be respected; we must receive such assurances prior to any assistance being provided.

For your information, the Hong Kong special administrative region is governed by a variety of legal constraints regarding deportation and custody of aliens. Accordingly, we believe that you will need to provide significant detail on Abu Munthir (eg, his terrorist/criminal acts, why he is wanted, perhaps proof of citizenship). It is also our understanding that Hong Kong officials have insisted that prior to turning Abu Munthir over to your custody, they must receive clear assurances from your government that Abu Munthir and his family will be treated humanely and in accordance with human rights."

by An DD Mon Sep 05, 2011 01:10

Whatever you might say about Gadaffi himself, he has always been an anti-imperialist. The list of his anti-imperialist actions are long and varied - not least his practical support for Irish anti-imperialism. Tragically, in latter years, under pressure from Jihadist elements, he mistakenly tried to make friends with the NATO snakes. Now Libya is paying in blood for that terrible error. But, even during that time, Gadaffi proposed dropping the dollar as the oil trading currency in Africa, and replacing it with the African Gold Dinar. He continued to keep the Libyan people out of the clutches of the transnational bankster usurers, and kept the Libya bank in the ownership of the Libyan people, and kept the interest rate at 0%. Once the NATO oil pirates struck, he showed admirable courage in the face of NATO mass murder and terrorism, including the butchering of his own son and grandchildren.

by FFS Mon Sep 05, 2011 03:19

Libya: NATO Enabling War Crimes http://www.blacklistednews.com/Libya%3A_NATO_Enabling_W....html

According to Fox News, a Libyan rebel "spokesman" recently boasted, "in the end, we will get [the city of] Sirte, even if we have to cut water and electricity and let NATO pound it with airstrikes."

Sirte is one of many cities still standing in defiance of NATO's operations to seize the nation of 6 million people, impose upon them an "internationally approved" government, and begin pilfering their resources under the guise of "economic liberalization." Rebels have intentionally surrounded Sirte to cut off electricity as well as the flow of supplies including food and cooking gas in a bid to literally "starve the city into submission," as reported by the London Telegraph.

This latest boast by rebels, now operating openly with notorious Al Qaeda members leading their fighters, and still with full military support from NATO, seems to suggests that water will be cut as well.

According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the denial of humanitarian assistance is a crime under international law. The Red Cross adds that "a massacre is not necessarily committed only with knives." While many will attempt to portray the premeditated creation of a humanitarian disaster as "more humane" than taking the city of Sirte by force - rebels have in fact already tried to take the city by force and were soundly repelled.

NATO airstrikes have apparently proved ineffective and other cities are now bolstering their defenses and rejecting calls by the NATO-backed Al Qaeda fighters to surrender. As the deadline for NATO's military intervention grows increasingly nearer, their efforts to seize the nation have become increasingly more desperate and in proportion more depraved.

As has been pointed out and now clearly evident in Tripoli, the Benghazi rebels backed by NATO are not motivated by inclinations of "democracy" but rather tribal, ethnic, and viciously racial prejudices. Reuters has recently tried to whitewash what is essentially wholesale genocide being waged against Tripoli's black population by the Benghazi rebels led by Al Qaeda's notorious al-Hasidi.

The targeting of Tripoli's black population has been entirely written off by the corporate media as rebels pursuing "suspected mercenaries." Why then would Sirte, Bani Waled, or any other city still standing soundly in defiance of these rebels and NATO, surrender and subject themselves to ensured genocide?

We are faced with a textbook case of a very real crime against humanity, yet the International Criminal Court is utterly silent, as are the voices in the UN that were vigorously clamoring to authorize war against Libya back in March of 2011.

Silent also are the fraudulent George Soros Open Society-funded Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International (see *** below) organizations.

The ICC and the supporting myriad of contrived rights advocates once again demonstrates they are illegitimate institutions contrived solely to serve Wall Street and London's interests in a clearly one-sided manner.

It is no wonder why the African Union has wholly rejected the International Criminal Court's decisions made against Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi or why nations across the world exhibit increasing hostility toward "independent" NGOs like Human Rights Watch, Freedom House, and Amnesty International.

Nations should not be expected to permit such organizations to operate within their borders when in reality their goal is not defending human rights but finding a predicate for foreign military intervention on behalf of the corporate-financier interests that fund them. . . . .

The fact that you set yourself up as the arbiter of who is or is not 'Anti-Imperialist' while completely denying the clear evidence of HRW's complicity in spreading NATO's Imperialist-propaganda speaks for itself

*** - From the Amnesty year end report

The Directors are pleased to acknowledge the support of the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Oak Foundation, Open Society Georgia Foundation, the Vanguard Charitable Endowment Programme, Mauro Tunes and American Jewish World Service. The UK Department for International Development (Governance and Transparency Fund) continued to fund a four year human rights education project in Africa. The European Commission (EuropeAid)

by FFS Mon Sep 05, 2011 03:46

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/libyan...ticle

Many justifying NATO's act of aggression by calling Gadhaffi a "dictator," Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey wrote in Pravada - http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/31-08-2011/...th-0/ - on the 31st that Gadhaffi was to receive a humanitarian prize in March.

"He was the one to speak out against the more conservative practices in Islam, who spoke out against the killing of homosexuals or the stoning of women. The Jamahiriya system is the antithesis of a dictatorship. What dictator educates his people and pays for them to study abroad?"
"Libya's literacy rate improved from ten per cent to ninety per cent under "Gaddafi" and under his guidance the country rose from the poorest in the world to the richest in Africa. Those who understand anything about geopolitical events know that this is an amazing achievement, in itself, within four decades."

Of extreme importance, according to DeBar, is understanding that since 1969, Libyan government has offered an economic and political model to Africans and others suffering colonial control that stands in stark contrast to the models of such as Nigeria and South Africa.
"The country's natural wealth has been directly applied to the economic needs of the population, resulting:

Every Libyan owns their home - without mortgage encumbrance or rent or property tax burdens;

A first-rate health care system was built and operated that is free and available to all;

A first-rate education system was built and operated through the post-graduate level that is free and available to all;

Oil revenues are distributed to the people in the form of a monthly stipend in the thousands of dollars; and

Public infrastructure - such as roads, water systems, electricity, etc., were constructed and operated efficiently and made available to all."

This economic and political model since NATO's invasion, has been reduced to one in which international aid workers have descended with missions to assess and provide assistance in restoring water supply in Tripoli and surrounding areas, look into protecting civilians and assess the food situation, according to U.N. News.

"The [aid] team includes officials from the UN Children’s Fund , the World Food Programme , the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs
."
Whereas food was no problem for Libyans before the NATO invasion and supplying the Rebels with weapons, now WFP has needed to dispatch some 600 metric tons of food to Tripoli for distribution by the Libyan Red Crescent to over 35,500 conflict-affected and displaced people for one month.
At the request of the NTC, WFP is also procuring 250,000 tons of fuel for life-saving humanitarian work for one month, according to OCHA.
According to DeBar, the threat that is being imposed on the Libyans is twofold:

"1. A plan to democratize control of Africa's wealth, and

"2. A successful example of doing this in Libya, demonstrating that it is possible and offering a 'how-to' model to the people of the entire continent - a serious threat to colonial ambition that is perhaps unmatched in the world at present."
The U.N. human rights office http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/vampir...-says warned the U.S. last week , before the NATO slaughter of some 1000 Libyans in Sirte, that http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=16...89863 executing Moammar Gadhaffi without trial would be illegal .
Part of the U.S. media campaign against Libyans and for its resources has been to rouse a sense of NATO victory over Libya.
In a Skype message on Saturday, DeBar told Dupré "the reason the U.N. and others are looking for excuses (e.g., 'aid,' 'protection of mustard gas stockpiles from terrorists,' and 'extending' the 'deadline' etc.) is that the 'NATO Rebels' are not winning.
"I was told today by someone on the ground in Tripoli that the government has re-established many checkpoints in Tripoli, and a map I saw yesterday of respective govt/'rebel' holdings gave government approximately 70% of the cities," DeBar reported to Dupré.
"I don't assume that the Libyans will lose. The push behind western propaganda is to have people think it's over. It's definitely NOT over."

plenty more at the link - http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/libyan...ticle

by FFS Mon Sep 05, 2011 13:36

HRW finally got around to making a press release concerning the dire situation for Black Africans after the NATO-FINANCED 'rebels' 'liberated' Tripoli.

Though numerous journalists have reported seeing the bodies of executed Black Africans, with their hands already cuffed, strewn on the streets of Tripoli HRW rreports:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/04/libya-stop-arbitrary...icans

"
Human Rights Watch has not found evidence of killings of Africans in Tripoli or systematic abuse of detainees, but the widespread arbitrary arrests and frequent abuse have created a grave sense of fear among the city’s African population, Human Rights Watch said."

'HRW has not found' - I suppose if you don't look too hard, or look in the wrong places, you won't find much of anything

Thing is though, on this very page are photos of Black Africans rounded up and executed by the NATO-FINANCED 'rebels'

by FFS Mon Sep 05, 2011 13:37

Beware the latest disinformation on Libya.

The security services want to make Gaddafi look bad and the new al-Qaeda government of Libya look good.

Abdel Hakim Belhadj is the top military man in the new Libyan government and he helped found a group which was part of al Qaeda.

Hence the following stories:

1. "A secret letter found in an abandoned Libyan government building appears to show that MI6 provided intelligence which led to the 'rendition' of a Libyan dissident... Abdel Hakim Belhadj..."

(Britain handed rebel to Gaddafi torturers: Devastating secret ...‎ Daily Mail - http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://www.dailymail.co...ZCeOQ)

This is meant to make you feel sorry for Belhadj.

It may also be meant to hurt BP, which is 'linked to MI6', and help certain rival oil companies.

2. The UK government "secretly helped free the Lockerbie bomber to appease Colonel Gaddafi, who was threatening to scupper oil contracts and unleash ‘holy war’ on Britain, it was revealed yesterday."

(Devastating secret files reveal Labour lies over Gaddafi: Dictator ...‎ Daily Mail - http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://www.dailymail.co...Mme6w)

This is meant to distract you from the fact that elements of the CIA most likely did the Lockerbie Bombing.

3. "The documents, seen by The Daily Telegraph, unearth British intelligence suspicions about links between Iran and al-Qaeda dating back almost a decade."

(Libyan 'extremist' Britain allowed to stay was link to al-Qaeda in ... http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=2...Mpxuw)

LOL. FAKE, FAKE, FAKE.

There is a battle going on among the security services of the West, all anxious to grab Libya's oil and all anxious to get reconstruction projects. (Dash for profit in post-war Libya carve-up - http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=3...IjL9A)

Exxon has just done a deal with Russia's Rosneft, thus frustrating BP. (For BP Exxon-Rosneft deal is a reminder of its errors‎ - http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=1...fugjQ)

Nicola Jones, writing in New Scientist, 19 November 2001, (Taliban nuclear documents mirror spoof article - 19 November 2001 ... http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3...Q8uPw) pointed out that 'Taliban nuclear documents' found by BBC reporter John Simpson were identical to a spoof article.

In 2001, John Simpson claimed he had found documents strewn on the floor of a Taliban recruitment centre in Kabul.

He claimed these documents apparently described how to build a thermonuclear device.The documents, according to Simpson showed "how dangerous Bin Laden's Al Qaeda network aspired to be".

According to the New Scientist: The sentences shown in focus by the camera also come from a famous document called "Weekend Scientist: Let's Make a Thermonuclear Device", which was first published in 1979 as a humour piece by The Journal of Irreproducible Results.

Reportedly, John Simpson was a university friend of a former head of MI6.

by NSN Mon Sep 05, 2011 13:40

The British SWP on Gaddaffi and his regime. They are linked to the Irish SWP.

Muammar Gaddafi’s 42‑year dictatorship reached its endgame as opposition forces reached Tripoli, the Libyan capital, this week. Fierce battles were taking place in streets across the city as Socialist Worker went to press.

The end of Gaddafi’s regime is a cause for celebration. But the nature of the struggle in Libya is now fundamentally different from the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt that originally inspired it.
It became so once Western forces decided to appropriate it.

But the West’s motives were never humanitarian. If our rulers really care about democracy and freedom, why do they not back opposition movements in Bahrain, Yemen or Saudi Arabia? The answer is that the dictators there are friendly to the West. Western leaders have never had any qualms about working with dictators—just as they had no trouble working with Gaddafi until after the Libyan revolt began.

They may have derided him as a “mad dog” in the past, but this didn’t stop Tony Blair embracing him in 2004 and again in 2007...

And if the spirit of revolt that has spread across the region is invigorated, the same leaders who today cheer the end of Gaddafi may again find their interests threatened by a movement that has anti-imperialism at its core.

by FFS Mon Sep 05, 2011 14:13

While visiting a friend I had the misfortune to be exposed (luckily for me it wasn't fatal) to a BBC report 'starring' Orla Guerin.

The viewer was presented with a roomful of burnt corpses

They viewed one by the wall yet the wall was clean , not a burn mark anywhere.

Taking it all in we have the ever-so-sensitive and slightly frail Orla, showing us round a room full of burnt corpses enclosed by 4 unsmoked walls.

Obviously the room in question is not where the bodies were originally burnt, despite Orla's best efforts to pretend it was

Why anyone would gather into an indoor space a room full of corpses, in the middle of the desert heat, instead of burying them, is a mystery, given the associated health hazards . Far easier and safer to bury them, rather than pick them up and drag them indoors.

Unless of course the corpses were kept there purely for propaganda purposes.

But there was another far more revealing report, again with the winsome Orla, in an underground secret-service HQ bunker. No one in the room I was in noticed until I pointed it out, all the signs were in English, - after that even my friends Dad had to laugh.

Just to confirm this I went online when I got home to find the Orla Guerin report and confirm that the signs were in English - I found the page on which the report is linked as a video - but when one tries to access the video it says - "This content not working, try again later" - I have tried numerous times now since I saw the report and the result is always the same "This content not working, try again later"

I guess someone at the BBC FINALLY noticed that all the signs were in English

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14709896

by FFS Mon Sep 05, 2011 14:20

It was never 'appropriated' - it belonged to NATO from the start - they armed and financed the 'rebels' from the very start -- anyone paying attention to photos and video from the start of this conflict could plainly see that right from the very start many of the 'rebels' wore one or two items of NATO-issue combat gear - many of them also had weaponry favoured by NATO-member armies, rather than, say, the Kalashnikov's usually found amongst genuine grass-roots insurgencies

i personally saw US manufactured M16's in the hands ot the NATO-Financed 'rebels' - right from the very start of this conflict.

by NSN Mon Sep 05, 2011 14:30

The PIRA had and now the RIRA and ONH have M16s.

Does that mean they are/were armed by NATO?

These guns are available from arms dealers but were very likely given to Gaddafi by NATO. You seem to be the only person who is unaware that Gaddaffi made his peace with imperialism in 2004.

Guns sent from Gaddafi to Ireland in the 1980s sometimes came in crates stamped Libyan Armed Forces. English is widely used in Libya.

by NSN Mon Sep 05, 2011 14:35

Wikileaks cable exposes US Libya collusion. More at: http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/48732

Libya: WikiLeaks exposes US-Gaddafi ties

Sunday, September 4, 2011
By Ash Pemberton

As Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi's regime crumbled on August 23 after a rebel uprising and NATO bombing, United States President Barack Obama said: "For over four decades, the Libyan people had lived under the rule of a tyrant who denied them their most basic human rights."

Obama would know ― his government's support in recent years allowed Gaddafi's regime to do so. Indeed, the NATO bombing campaign targeted Libyan forces the US had armed and trained.

Secret US diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks confirmed the growing closeness between the US and Libyan governments in recent years.

Confirming the US's lack of concern about Gaddafi's human rights abuses and absence of democracy in the country, the cables show the two countries were close to “normalising” their relationship.

This process started in the mid-1990s, when Gaddafi began to open Libya to Western investment.

Gaddafi's shit to ally of the West was formalised in 2004 when then-British PM Tony Blair struck a deal with the Libyan regime.

A cable from the US embassy in Tripoli on August 19, 2009, details a meeting between a US congressional delegation led by former presidential candidate Senator John McCain and Muammar Gaddafi and his son Muatassim.

In the lead up to the meeting, a cable on August 10, 2009, said: “Libya has acted as a critical ally in U.S. counter-terrorism efforts, and Libya is considered one of our primary partners in combating the flow of foreign fighters. Our strategic partnership in this field has been highly productive and beneficial to both nations.

“Libya has stated its number one priority, in return for relinquishing WMD [Weapons of Mass Destruction], is a security guarantee by the U.S. against foreign aggression.

“To that end, Libya has expressed an interest in purchasing lethal weapons from U.S. firms.”

Discussion at the meeting focused on Libya's desire to buy “lethal and non-lethal military equipment” from US companies.

by FFS Mon Sep 05, 2011 17:03

War for Libyan oil planned long ago

Caption: Video Id: 0fUxVgxj0vc Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by rebels = NATO-proxy Mon Sep 05, 2011 19:10

Libya video, rebel admits that most people supported Gaddafi

From a Sky News interview - about 50 seconds in, "most people here supported Gaddafi" says the Fighter from Manchester.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4ff_1314795938

so much for the myth that it is some sort of 'grass-roots' insurrection -

by 'rebels' = NATO=proxy Mon Sep 05, 2011 19:15

Say what you want about George Galloway. Love him, hate him, whatever?
He kicks this guy's arse
!
This "Libyan" is a prime example of NATO brainwashing. His perception has been well-managed.
He doesn't want Russia or China to buy oil. Only Britian, France and Italy.

Seriously, you have got to listen to this.

Caption: Video Id: Gj8gBRBfvSA Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by Libyan Mon Sep 05, 2011 20:41

The people of Libya will kill Gidaffi all on their own.
Thanks for the bombs NATO.

by Des - None Mon Sep 05, 2011 21:27

Yes, indeed, NATO, thank you for destroying the country and killing thousands of people. Thank you for the depleted uranium and especially thank you for inflicting Al Qaida on the country.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Sep 06, 2011 13:31

..dont forget to mention their bankrupting of the planet with their resource wars of the 21st century. But they're still only warming up.

by Crazy Cat Wed Sep 07, 2011 16:35

This has been a very informative blog from the beginning. It stopped for a while as one of their members was killed.

The update is in French.

I've tried a translation with google , its just O.K. but not brillant.

http://setrouver.wordpress.com/

by Crazy Cat Wed Sep 07, 2011 17:00

Sorry, he was injured, not killed

by Crazy Cat Wed Sep 07, 2011 17:21

An excellent article from Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/middle_east/mi01ak02.html

by Crazy Cat Wed Sep 07, 2011 17:32

http://atimes.com/atimes/others/Pepe2011.html

by Bernays Thu Sep 08, 2011 17:59

"Free Tripoli" - just don't mention the corpses - http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/free-tripoli...pses/

"The first media victory was when it got away with claiming that Gaddafi’s government was attacking it’s own citizens in Tripoli from the air, a claim which formed part of the pretext for NATO’s intervention and also served to create panic and anger amongst the city’s residents. No one was held to account when later Russian intelligence satellites and visits from independent observers to the areas alleged to have been targeted, revealed no evidence that such attacks had taken place. . . . "

It is not necessary to fully suppress the truth - merely delaying it will suffice in most instances - sheeple will always believe what they want to believe

by Bernays Thu Sep 08, 2011 18:17

NATO has “carpet-bombed” entire neighborhoods in Libya, Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya told Press TV’s US Desk in an interview on Monday. He said:

They carpet-bombed the country. Their deliberate tactic was to create a humanitarian disaster and to militarily clear the way, without any humanitarian regards, without any regards for human life. They used every dimension of the psychological war including the media to create fear which created a state of panic and it also traumatized the local population and it caused a lot of people to defect, not a lot but it did cause quite a fair number of people to defect or to remain neutral. They should be held accountable for war crimes they have committed against the state of Libya.

Meanwhile, NATO Sec-Gen Rasmussen said that the US-led military alliance would soon end its operation in Libya. Rasmussen, however, added that a definite timetable would not be announced as their withdrawal depends on the assessment made by commanders on ground.

Caption: Video Id: 3XP1U9poWG0 Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video

by Jemmy Hope Fri Sep 09, 2011 13:17

The Committee for a Workers' International have a new article on the Libyan situation. You can get the whole editorial at the site link. The Socialist Party are the Irish section of the CWI.

Quickly after the revolution started, imperialist powers, Britain, France and the US especially, took advantage of the counter-attack by Gaddafi’s forces towards Benghazi and the east. Stung by the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions, these imperialist powers intervened as “protectors” of the Libyan people and, via the agency of the self-appointed and pro-western Transitional National Council (TNC), sought to control the revolution and exploit it for its own ends. Thus the fledging democratic bodies that had begun to develop in Benghazi were curtailed and, in essence, the TNC became a NATO ally.

The newly revealed correspondence confirming the close links between the Gaddafi regime and imperialist agencies, like the CIA and Britain’s MI6, show the Western powers’ utter hypocrisy. Their “concern” for the Libyan people under Gaddafi did not amount to much. Trade and assistance with the ‘war on terror’ were the West’s priorities.

Only when they saw a chance to both replace Gaddafi with a more reliable ally, and to take a grip over the revolution starting in Libya, did Washington, Paris, London etc, suddenly start calling for “regime change”. This should serve as a warning not just to Libyans but also to those in Syria and elsewhere who might have hopes in outside intervention against tyrants. The populations in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar and other states know just how friendly the Western powers are with dictatorial and undemocratic regimes which serve imperialism’s interests.

Already it is clear that the imperialist powers’ plans, particularly regarding the TNC, are not working out smoothly and they are preparing for the possibility of using the UN as a cover to intervene to try to stabilise situation.

The rest: http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5269

by Des - None Fri Sep 09, 2011 19:27

The vast majority of the Libyan population did not participate in this 'revolution'. The overthrow of Colonel Gaddafi was 'accomplished' by NATO air power. It was yet another resource war.

by James Petras Sun Sep 11, 2011 14:09

Read my article about how NATO derailed the Libyan revolution.

NATO’s War Crimes In Libya:
Who Grieves For The Fallen Heroes?
By James Petras

The NATO invasion of Libya was basically a response to the “Arab spring” : the popular uprisings which spread from North Africa to the Persian Gulf. The NATO assault formed part of a general counter-attack designed to contain and reverse the popular democratic and anti-imperialist movements which had ousted or were on the verge of overthrowing US-client dictators

http://www.countercurrents.org/petras100911.htm

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Sep 13, 2011 00:28

I wish people would stop referring to this NATO oil grab as a "revolution." It's a coup d'état by US and European imperialists. Nothing could be less Revolutionary.

by pat c Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:09

I believe that it started off as a genuine uprising and was hijacked by NATO. But I reckon Petras has done a better analysis than I could.

An DD, why don't you go to the article by Petras and see where you think hes wrong and post comments on it here?

Rgds

Pat

by Rosenbud Tue Sep 13, 2011 13:19

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same Petras article because Petras clearly states that he considers the Libyan 'rebels' to be "radical Islamists and monarchists" and it would be a fair stretch to describe any movement in Libya led by "radical Islamists and monarchists" as "populist".

Furthermore, Petras goes on to say

[The] . . . . “uprising” in Benghazi during March 2011 was backed by and served as a pretext for the NATO imperial powers to extend their counter-offensive on the road to neo-colonial restoration.

Note that it was Petras himself that put the the quotation-marks around the word "uprising".

This to me would indicate that he does not consider "uprising" (with it's populist connotations) to be a correct description of what has occurred in Libya

Petras actually spells out what he thinks about these events when, under the sub-heading "NATO’s War and the Phony “Rebel Uprising”", he writes:

Nothing is more obvious than the fact that the entire war against Libya was in every strategic and material fashion NATO’s war. The casting of the rag-tag collection of monarchists, Islamist fundamentalists, London and Washington-based ex-pats and disaffected Gaddafi officials as “rebels” is a pure case of mass media propaganda.
From the beginning the ‘rebels’ depended completely on the military, political, diplomatic and media power of NATO, without which the de facto mercenaries would not have lasted a month, holed up in Benghazi."

Unless I have completely misunderstood what you meant in your latest comment,tPetras appears, to me at least, to be saying the exact opposite of what you appear to be claiming he is saying.

The NATO-financed 'rebels' MAY have been popular in Benghazi, but we only have the Western Media's word for that, and they have been caught telling so many lies so far that their word is not worth anything at all.

It seems pretty obvious, given that they needed NATO bombing-runs to help them advance over every inch of Libyan ground that they crossed, that they were not, and are not, popular country-wide.

by pat c Tue Sep 13, 2011 19:08

I was referencing Petras on the broader Arab Spring. He wouldn't agre with me that there was a genuine rebellion at the start. Sorry about any confusion. But I respect his analysis of the broader picture.
In the article you will see that Petras accepts that there was an Arab Spring:

What caused the NATO countries to shift abruptly from a policy of embracing Gaddafi to launching a brutal scorched-earth invasion of Libya in a matter of months? The key is the popular uprisings, which threatened Euro-US domination. The near total destruction of Libya, a secular regime with the highest standard of living in Africa, was meant to be a lesson, a message from the imperialists to the newly aroused masses of North Africa, Asia and Latin America: The fate of Libya awaits any regime which aspires to greater independence and questions the ascendancy of Euro-American power.

Far from seeing all popular risings as regime change by Imperialism he sees the NATO action in Libya as a warning to other popular forces. Especialy in Syria where there is large popular resistance movement but the US also has its client fundamentalists. As Petras points out the fundamentalists in Syria have carried on an armed campaign against both the regime forces, secularists and christians

The Arab popular rebellions were the central concern and the motor force behind NATO’s destruction of Libya. These mass popular uprisings had toppled the long-standing pillars of US-Israel-EU dominance in the Middle East. The fall of the Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak and his Tunisian counterpart Ben Ali sent tremors through the imperial foreign offices. These successful uprisings had the immediate ripple effect of inspiring similar movements throughout the region. Bahrain, housing the key naval base for the US navy in the Middle East and neighboring Saudi Arabia (the US key strategic ally in the Arab world), witnessed a prolonged massive uprising of civil society, while Yemen ruled by the US- puppet Ali Saleh, faced mass popular movements and militant resistance. Morocco and Algeria were experiencing popular demands for democracy.

He also references the hijacking of the Egyptian Revolution but the people are fighting back there.

by Rosenbud Wed Sep 14, 2011 14:10

NATO 'rebels' create 'Year-Zero' in Libya?

Disappeared: Thousands of Libyan Blacks Turn Up Missing in Rebel Offensives - http://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/13/disappeared-thousand...ives/

Entire City Depopulated, Declared 'Closed Military Area'

Before the Libyan Civil War, Tawarga was an agricultural city of some 10,000, mostly black people, with an economy centering around palm trees and date production. Today, it is entirely empty, and declared a “closed military area” by the rebels.

But where did the Tawargans go? That’s not such an easy question to answer. The rebels rounded them all up and herded them into “refugee camps” in Tripoli. But reporters that went to Tripoli found the camps empty as well, with the only person there, someone looting scrap metal out of one camp, declaring that they had “gone to Niger.”

Tripoli residents near the camp, however, report that the Tawargans had indeed been in the camp at one point, but that the camp itself was attacked by forces from Misrata. They beat the men, rounded up the women and children and took them away in trucks. They believed the troops were taking them to another camp in another part of Tripoli. That camp too was empty.

Black people have been disappearing all across Libya, with rebels arresting people simply on the basis of skin color, but how does a whole city go missing? It may be quite some time before we learn exactly what happened, but we have hints in media reports dating back to June, when Misrata rebels began openly talking about “cleansing” the region of blacks and were saying that black Libyans might as well pack up because “Tawarga no longer exists, only Misrata.”

Fast forward nearly three months from this proclamation, and we have an empty city where Tawarga once stood. The only sign saying Tawarga has been covered up with a new sign saying “New Misrata.”

by An DD Wed Sep 21, 2011 20:49

The fake "Arab Spring" bullshít seems to have completely paralysed the Left Wing parties in Europe and forced them to stand idly by, while NATO subjects the Libyan people to genocide. Its very sad really. How can the Working Class have confidence in a leadership that are so easily fooled by NATO oil pirates?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:17

Not altogether. The phenomenon was real enough, but they've hijacked it, as they do. Tunisia and Egypt were ground-up, from the street, attempts at democratic change. Libya is obviously a set-up by western agencies for the usual motives. You only have to listen to the pathetic propaganda about 'civil war' and civilians as Britain, France and NATO salivate for resources.

by pat c Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:12

Again I would ask you to read the Petras article. There were and are genuine protests in Tunisia, Egypt and Syria. The thing is to keep them from being subverted by Imperialism.

I agree with you that NATO has subverted the upsurge for democracy in Libya. The movement from protests to an armed uprising may have been engineered by NATO but not all of the militias are under the control of NTC/NATO.

Constantly reiterating the mantra: There Is No Arab Spring is no analysis.

We should be supporting the forces who are opposed to both dictatorships and Imperialism.

by An DD Thu Sep 22, 2011 13:13

I totally reject the idea that any of the rebels ever had any pro-democracy intentions. Libya already had one of the most effective democratic systems in the world, the Jumhuria, where every Libyan - regardless of race, gender or creed, is not only allowed to give their voice on the affairs of state, but are expected to. A similar system works in Cuba and Chavez is working towards the same system also.

Of course, this is not what NATO call "democracy." "Democracy" in the West is where the landowners and capitalists rule, and fake elections are held every four years to choose a new front man for the de facto government. Once the people have written a few numbers on a page, they are excluded for the next four years.

So, we see that democracy was never the issue in Libya. Certainly the Islamists have no interest in democracy. And certainly the neo-liberals like Jalil have no interest in democracy.

Quite apart from all that, Gadaffi offered representational elections at the start of this conflict - just to end it. NATO and its pseudo gangs rejected any elections - as they knew Gaddafi would win any election with a huge majority - he still would, that why they are so desperate to murder him.

by An Draighneán Donn Thu Sep 22, 2011 13:22

As for the so called "Arab Spring" itself, certainly there is a huge amount of discontent. There is in Ireland also. If the CIA wanted to start an uprising in Ireland, nothing could be easier. The youth in every estate would love to string up the gardaí. Just look at England. What if the rioters had the CIA and NATO behind them? How long would it have taken them to overthrow the British state and string up Cameron and his cronies.

So, yes, I agree that the anger was there. But, was was not there is what is not there in Ireland or England, i.e. an organized mass movement that is coherent enough to take on the forces of the state effectively. In North Africa and Syria, the CIA provided a substitute for the power such a People's Movement naturally has.

Needless to say, since there was never a genuine People's Movement, once the job of regime change is complete, the people remain as helpless and excluded as ever - as we already see in Algeria and Egypt.

by An DD Thu Sep 22, 2011 13:27

pat, a chara, there was never a transition from protests to armed action in Libya. Libyan police were fired on from the very first demonstration - which only had about 200 people at it. Demonstrators dont fire on the police straight away - if they haven't already been promised NATO airpower.

by An DD Thu Sep 22, 2011 14:05

This is what "liberation" looks like under the Nato Nazi rebels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37LIsGkmKI&feature=uplo...email

by An DD Thu Sep 22, 2011 14:08

This is what Nato "precision" bombing looks like - completely safe to civilians:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=109986452442317

by Rosenbud Thu Sep 22, 2011 16:12

Pat c said "Again I would ask you to read the Petras article. There were and are genuine protests in Tunisia, Egypt and Syria. The thing is to keep them from being subverted by Imperialism. "

YOU keep asking people to read Petras but when I read it Petras, in relation to Libya, the subject of this thread, says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what at you appear to be saying - there were NO populist peaceful protests which were hijacked - the Protests were violent from the get-go and were controlled from the start by the NATO powers.

READ the article yourself - that is EXACTLY what it says.

I agree with you that NATO has subverted the upsurge for democracy in Libya. - YOU have no proof, other than tainted MSM reports, of an 'upsurge for Democracy' ijn Libya . .. none.

" The movement from protests to an armed uprising may have been engineered by NATO but not all of the militias are under the control of NTC/NATO."

Again you have ZERO proof for this - certainly no such proof is to be found in the Petras article you keep referring to - have YOU actually read that article yourself, because it looks like you have not - Petras explicitly states the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are claiming - and this has even been pointed out to you, using quotes from the article in question.

What you are claiming, is merely your own personal BELIEF.

YOU have no evidence, other than reports from the tainted MSM, to back up your BELIEF.

Your BELIEF is no different from a religious persons BELIEFS - it is based on nothing more than your own wishful thinking.

by @Pat C Thu Sep 22, 2011 16:15

"not all of the militias are under the control of NTC/NATO"

Who then?

Name names please.

Which SPECIFIC militias, groups etc were not under NATO or NTC influence?

by pat c Thu Sep 22, 2011 20:12

An DD I don't accept that there was democracy in Libya anymore than there was democracy in the USSR. Gadaffi had degenerated just as the USSR had.

Heres a piece on Egypt. I dont think the workers movement and socialists there are in the pay of the CIA. They want to overthrow the Generals.

Strikes deepen Egypt's revolution

The revolution in Egypt is gaining new momentum.

The strikes that began in the summer have stepped up. The hated Hosni Mubarak is on trial. And steel tycoon Ahmed Ezz was sentenced to ten years in jail on Thursday of last week for corruption.

“Strikes are breaking out all over the place,” Sameh Naguib, a member of the Revolutionary Socialists in Cairo, told Socialist Worker.

“The government is running around trying to give concessions to stop strikes even before they take place.”

Schools and colleges have been one focus of strikes and protests, including the elite American University in Cairo.There, striking college staff united with protesting students who occupied parts of the university.

As well as protesting over pay, contracts and student fees, the action was over management corruption and members of state security still holding positions in the college. One demand was for an investigation into the snipers witnessed shooting at demonstrators in Tahrir Square from rooftops in the university campus.

Struggles

Such struggles are breaking out throughout Egypt, despite strikes being deemed illegal by the military council. Many are localised, as trade unions start to take root and get organised.
There is as yet only fragile national infrastructure in the workers’ movement. But some workers have pulled off wider action. The first national teachers’ strike since 1951 continues.
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=26131

Roosenbud: as in my previous comment I was referring to Petras on the Arab Spring. I already stated that I differ with Petras on some issues but his broader analysis of the Arab Spring was certainly worth reading. No need for you to repeat yourself.

On the militias, what do you base your belief on? Have you visited Libya? What special channel of information do you have?

by pat c Thu Sep 22, 2011 20:29

at least I'm not alone in my analysis that things started out as a genuine uprising in Libya. Full text at link.

After the fall of Tripoli

22/09/2011
Revolution in grave danger of being seriously derailed

Robert Bechert, CWI, from October edition of Socialism Today, magazine of the Socialist Party (CWI in England & Wales)

The first weeks following the fall of Tripoli to rebel forces have, unfortunately, confirmed how the Libyan revolution is in grave danger of being seriously derailed. An absence, so far, of independent organisations of workers and youth and the dark shadow that NATO’s intervention has thrown over the revolution have produced a situation where scarcely a day goes by without warning signs appearing of the dangers ahead.

While the revolution started as a popular mass uprising against the autocratic Gadaffi regime, the fall of Tripoli did not have the same character. The rebel fighters who moved, with NATO air support, into Tripoli were made up of tribes and members of the Berber minority opposed to Gadaffi along with fighters from towns like Misrata and were “armed by the French, trained by the British and led into battle by Qatari special forces” (Observer, London, August 28, 2011)

Since Tripoli’s fall the fighting is continuing longer, and with greater ferocity, than the rebels expected. Glib explanations, like than expressed by British premier Cameron during his flying trip to Libya, that mercenaries are doing the fighting do not explain why, despite big retreats and constant NATO air bombardment, these forces are still fighting. In reality it reflects the social and tribal roots Gadaffi’s regime had, alongside fear of revenge from the winning side and hostility to foreign intervention.

by An DD Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:08

I think we can say that what existed in Libya, i.e. Direct Democracy in the process of building itself, was far superior to what exists in the West. It wasnt perfect by any means, but it was the beginning of real democracy - just as it is in Cuba and just as Chavez is trying to introduce this system of People Power to Venezuela. It is very telling that NATO has particularly singled out the Democratic Halls, where millions of Libyans expressed themselves directly, and without representation blocking them, for bombing to the ground.

It's no accident that NATO is attacking one of the only countries in the world with Direct Democracy - they don't want power to slip out of Bilderberg\Rothschild hands. Its also no accident that Libya, through the democratic wisdom of the People, was one of the only countries not in massive debt to the Rothschild family. That is soon to be changed.

(and any fool who is tempted to squeal "conspiracy buff," please control your innate stupidity.)

Looking at videos from Libya, its clear that the Nato rebels are mostly the Lumpenproletariat of Libya. Young men running on high testosterone, delighted to be able to string up police men - particularly Black ones - and loving every minute of shooting up the homes of the professional classes. This is very natural. But, when the price is the utter destruction of your country, and the handing over of your natural resources to US and European oil companies - then these Lumpenproletarians have to be stopped.

by pat c Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:39

I won't mock your mentioning of the Bilderbergs anymore than I would mock a mention of the Trilateral Commission or the CFR. Only fools think that those groups meet just to have a discussion about the world situation. They actively decide on strategies.

A word of caution about the Rothschilds though: they have their fingers in many pies but they ae not the only bank/banking family in the world. The Rothschilds happen to be Jewish and that is why some conspiraloons target them. I dont think you are a conspiraloon, just be careful about it.

I will defend Cuba & Venezuela against imperialist attack but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything Castro (minor) or Chavez says. I wouldn't compare Libya to Cuba though. But here we'll get into an off topic argument so I'll leave it for another day.

On the Lumpenoroletariat, I'm discussing that elsewhere. I'll try and post some of it on Indy.

by Rosenbud Fri Sep 23, 2011 15:54

Pat I take from the fact that you have not answered or even attempted to answer my question, that you are completely unable to identify any militia which you know for certain were/are not under the influence NTC/NATO - this despite the fact that you repeatedly state that such entities exist.

Instead you post a link to some other guy saying the same as yourself, even though this person provides no proof at all. Like you he just make as claim and expects it to be accepted - like you he has not a shred of evidence to support them.

For example:

"While the revolution started as a popular mass uprising against the autocratic Gadaffi regime,"

this is the exact same sort of claim you are making, and like you he provides no proof whatsoever.

The uprising occurred only in the Benghazi region initially. This region has for some time been an recruiting ground for Islamic Fundamentalist/Al Queada types (hardly proponents of 'Democracy')

The rebels were unable to permanently advance from that region and make any meaningful gains in territory until NATO started their bombing campaign - this alone indicates that the 'rebels' had little if any popular support outside their immediate area. It is a fact that the 'rebels' needed close air support provided by NATO in order to cross and hold virtually every square inch of ground they now claim to control.

This again is an indication of the widespread LACK of support they had amongst ordinary Libyans. A large proportion of the 'rebel' fighters were Al Queada types (hardly proponents of 'Democracy') or returned exiles.

Pretending that this was some sort of grass-roots uprising is a bit of a sick joke at this stage

by Rosenbud Fri Sep 23, 2011 19:22

Apparently THIS is better than life under Ghaddaffi -
Fear and loathing in Misrata - http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Fear-and-loathing-in-...10923

Misrata - The graffiti on a burnt-out building on Tripoli Street - the main boulevard in Misrata in ruins after ferocious street fighting - sums up the bitter mood in a city besieged for months by Muammar Gaddafi’s forces.

"We don't want the traitors and the people who ran away and want to come back," it says. That message echoes others scrawled around the Mediterranean port, which was a wealthy trading centre before Libya's revolution erupted in February.

The "traitors" are the people suspected of collaborating with Gaddafi’s forces as they pummelled the city and who are now being hunted down and imprisoned by a 70-strong team run by the new authorities.

The ones who ran away are mostly being blocked from returning - checkpoints ring the city and only those with special permission can enter - until they can prove that they did not collaborate.

But even those who do make it back are subjected to scorn - and sometimes violence - by their fellow townspeople who stuck it out and fought back during the long months when victory was far from certain.

"This is happening too much in Misrata. Everyone is pointing the finger and saying 'He's a traitor, that one is a traitor'," said one man on Thursday outside an administrative building on Tripoli Street now used as a jail for around 600 suspected collaborators.

The man, who would not give his name, said he was at the jail to try and find out why a relative had been imprisoned.

But when he saw that a fighter loyal to the National Transitional Council (NTC) interim regime was looking at him as he spoke to an AFP correspondent, he suddenly said "I can't talk any more. There is no problem."

And he hurriedly walked away.

Another man outside the jail, who also declined to give his name, said fighters had come to his house the night before to detain his brother, a Misrata native who had been working as a doctor in Tripoli.

He had been seen some time ago on Libyan state television – Gaddafi’s propaganda channel - being interviewed in his Tripoli hospital about casualties allegedly caused by Nato airstrikes.

He was now being investigated for alleged collaboration, but his brother insisted he had no choice but to speak to the television reporters.

Scouring old footage from the now defunct state television is one of the methods used to root out possible "traitors", explained Ibrahim al-Sherkissiya, the head of security in Misrata, whose office is in the prison. . . . . . ... . . . . . .

by pat c Sat Sep 24, 2011 13:51

I have given my opinion on what happened Libya. I have also posted the opinions of the SWP & SP. You may disagree with their analysis but they represent something, you don't. Whats being posted by you and a couple others on Indymedia is very much a minority opinion and does not reflect the views of the Left. It does not represent the views of Socialist parties in Ireland who have won the votes of tens of thousands of workers.

Your opinion is just that: an opinion.

Like you I depend on the MSM and Socialist organisations for my news on Libya. If you have some direct source from Libya or if you have been there recently then please enlighten us.

by pat c Sat Sep 24, 2011 13:58

Trouble with the MSM is that it comes back to bite you. Rosenbud used a story from News24 to back up his point of view. Now here is a another story from News24 claiming that Gaddafi loyalists were murdering civilians. I suggest we treat both stories with caution, check other sources, get an overview.

Libyan wounded describe Misrata hell
http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Libyan-wounded-descri...10404

Sfax - Gaddafi forces using tanks and snipers are carrying out a "massacre" in Misrata with corpses on the streets and hospitals full of the wounded, evacuees said, with one describing the besieged city as "hell".

Misrata, Libya's third city, rose up with other towns against Muammar Gaddafi's rule in mid-February, and it is now under attack by government troops after a violent crackdown put an end to most protests elsewhere in the west of the country.

"You have to visit Misrata to see the massacre by Gaddafi," said Omar Boubaker, a 40-year-old engineer with a bullet wound to the leg, brought to the Tunisian port of Sfax by a French aid group. "Corpses are in the street. Hospitals are overflowing."

Stalemate on the front line of fighting in eastern Libya, defections from Gaddafi's inner circle and the plight of civilians caught in fighting or facing food and fuel shortages prompted a flurry of diplomatic contacts to find a solution to the civil war.

But the evacuees from Misrata had more immediate concerns.

"I could live or die but I am thinking of my family and friends who are stranded in the hell of Misrata," said tearful evacuee Abdullah Lacheeb, who had serious injuries to his pelvis and stomach and a bullet wound in his leg.

"Imagine, they use tanks against civilians. He [Gaddafi] is prepared to kill everyone there... I am thinking of my family."

Swathed in bandages, evacuees gave some of the most detailed accounts yet of conditions in Misrata, the last major rebel-held city in western Libya which recalled sieges of town and cities in the Bosnian conflict.

by TN Sun Sep 25, 2011 16:55

Gadaffi slaughtered thousands of prisoners
see attached report
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/liby....html

by Serf Sun Sep 25, 2011 18:32

Since when is 1270 = "thousands" ?

Of course gadaffi was a bastard. Nobody denies that.
But so are you in distorting the true facts to shill for NATO.

They just killed a lot more than 1270.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2011_Lib...l_war

And yet they were only mandated to enforce a no fly zone. A little heavy handed don't you think?

UN human rights council estimate 10-15000 killed
And apparently UK/US also used to send people to gadaffi to be tortured.
Nice!

by TN Sun Sep 25, 2011 21:38

What facts am I distorting, my post refers to a breaking news report in the indo?
Does referring to the indo make me a stooge for NATO, if so then count in the majority of the adult broadsheet readership in Ireland!
Your first reference is a highly unreliable source - wikipedia .
Your second source "apparently" makes it seem to me that you apparently make up stuff as you go along, NICE!

by Serf Sun Sep 25, 2011 22:42

TN: "What facts am I distorting, my post refers to a breaking news report in the indo? "

heh heh heh Priceless! I think I'll make that my email sig!!

to answer your "question" (heh!) the indo article itself actually quotes the figure I used. You however chose to mislead anyone reading that there were "thousands" in the grave. Anyone reading your post would think that if they didn't actually pursue the link (most don't bother). This was deliberately misleading on your part. Even the indo didn't do that. I quoted their figure (1270).

quote from Indo:
"A mass grave containing the remains of 1,270 inmates killed by the regime of former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in a 1996 prison has been uncovered."

1270 is not "thousands". it is ONE thousand (and a bit)

by TN Sun Sep 25, 2011 23:54

Well 1270 in that one referenced grave "apparently" there are more to be found in the next few weeks!
(pardon my use of that word)
Is 1270 not enough to be counted as a massacre/slaughter anyway or shure maybe they were western stooges.

To me the laugh of the week is seeing someone who considers himself an independent journalist citing wikipedia as a primary source - did you edit that wikipedia page before you posted it (heh heh heh, oh dear)

by An Draighneán Donn Mon Sep 26, 2011 00:29

Serf wrote:

"Of course gadaffi was a bastard. Nobody denies that."

I deny it, and so do millions of Libyans, and tens of millions of Africans. He was certainly hard on the CIA rabble, who are now destroying Libya and handing Libya's wealth over to the Rothschilds et al - but, Gaddafi is to be praised for that. Gaddafi's only fault was that he was far too soft on these rats.

by BBC lying again? Mon Sep 26, 2011 02:56

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15055109
While the unelected, illegitimate terror council known as the NTC claims to have found merely ‘several bone fragments‘, the BBC claims that 1,200 bodies have been found - citing no evidence to back its claim, that a mass grave containing over 1,200 bodies has been found in Tripoli’s Abu Salim prison complex. The BBC attempts to tie this ‘finding’ to the equally concocted ‘Abu Salim prison massacre’, as it claims that the bodies are those of the inmates supposedly killed in 1996.

CNN has chimed in, stating that the bones found did not even appear to be human:

It was unclear, however, whether the site actually was a mass grave, as no excavation has taken place. Members of the media were shown bones at the site, but medics with CNN staffers on the scene said the bones did not appear to be human. - http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/25/world/africa/libya-ma...rave/

by WIT Mon Sep 26, 2011 14:12

A writer in Tripoli gives an opinion on what is happening in Libya.

A RECENT editorial SocialistWorker.org editorial ("Who really won in Libya") suggested that it was NATO that, in fact, won the revolution in Libya, not the Libyan people. From here in Tripoli, it seems that that judgment is rushed. There are a number of points that should be understood about the situation on the ground:

1. This has been a thoroughgoing popular revolution. Tripoli was not liberated by outside rebels. Rather, a popular uprising started from within, on August 20, in a number of neighborhoods across the city. By midday on the 21st, the state security apparatus had been defeated completely in a number of neighborhoods, and was crumbling in others. By the evening of the 21st, the first brigades of rebels reached the city, and fought through the remaining strongholds.

The driving force of the revolution in every crucial juncture has been mass participation, whether in the initial uprisings in Benghazi and the western city of Zintan, or in and around Tripoli.

Today, the streets of Tripoli are ruled by ordinary people. Every neighborhood has a popular committee, consisting of armed locals. They control the entry and exit points to their neighborhood, check vehicles, and, in the absence of police forces (who have only just begun to return) act as the de facto authority on the street level.

As one Libyan friend told me, "Everything is upside down now." Locals have laid bare most of the old centers of ruling class power, from security offices to Qaddafi's palaces. You can spend afternoons strolling through Qaddafi's villas and sifting through papers in intelligence headquarters. Locals have taken over some of Qaddafi's houses and prisons and turned them into museums of sorts. The massive swimming pool in the house of Aisha Qaddafi, built with money that rightfully belongs to ordinary Libyans, has been turned into a public pool. In some neighborhoods, residents have taken over hotels and restaurants, kicking out the pro-Qaddafi owners and running it themselves.

The same sense of empowerment, of imagining the impossible, that pervaded Egypt after its revolution exists here.

2. There are a number of forces vying for leadership of the revolution. These include: 1) Revolutionary leaders in Tripoli who have been directing the movement there since day one, in February, often with little direct contact with NATO; 2) Revolutionaries from Tripoli who have been based outside, in Benghazi, Tunisia or further abroad, and who are returning; 3) Islamist currents, led by prominent clerics; 4) The Benghazi-based, U.S.-backed National Transitional Council (NTC), and particularly the cabinet-like Executive Committee; 5) The Tripoli military forces, themselves split into two factions, one under the command of ex-Islamist Abdel Hakim Belhaj and the other under the control of ex-Qaddafi figures. Belhaj, who was imprisoned and tortured due to the collusion of the U.S. and Qaddafi, has some popular support in eastern Libya, and is believed to be backed by Qatar 6) About 40 rebel kataibas, or brigades, from around the country.

Most of these kataibas are organized based on the town of origin or tribe, and are usually independently financed. In a number of cases, they are backed by wealthy businessmen from outside the country. The kataibas have mostly resisted coming under the authority of any of the above-mentioned groups--the Misrata brigade, for instance, has taken over some neighborhoods in Tripoli, sparking tensions with locals...

http://socialistworker.org/2011/09/20/a-popular-revolution

by Am Draighneán Donn Mon Sep 26, 2011 15:28

In a piece posted today after a NTC news conference, the BBC uses the headline: "More than 1,200 bodies found in Tripoli mass grave". Categorically, absolutely, unequivocally, this is an out-and-out lie; 1,200 bodies have not been found. Not a single body has been found. In fact, no excavation has been performed, and no more than 'several bone fragments’ have been discovered, according to the NTC.
CNN has now stated that the bones found did not even appear to be human:

"It was unclear, however, whether the site actually was a mass grave, as no excavation has taken place. Members of the media were shown bones at the site, but medics with CNN staffers on the scene said the bones did not appear to be human."

Full article:

http://uruknet.info/?p=m81748&hd=&size=1&l=e

by An DD Mon Sep 26, 2011 15:34

Of course, Al Jazeera were over the moon about this tasty tit bit of complete fabrication. Here is one of their hysterical reports:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/09/201192....html

by An DD Mon Sep 26, 2011 15:41

Have a read of this report from CNN. It gives a big hysterical headline about Gadaffi's supposed mass grave - but, just to cover itself, it buries the only bit of real reporting in the whole article - one crucial sentence in the middle of the text:

"A CNN team was brought to the site, a muddy field, with other media, and found only what appeared to be animal bones."

Read the article here:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/25/world/africa/libya-ma...wo_c2

by An DD Mon Sep 26, 2011 15:55

The lies that NATO has concocted to "justify" this invasion have been unprecedented. They have gone well beyond the NATO lies about Iraqi soldiers supposedly throwing the babies out of 500 incubators in Kuwait - even though there were less then a hundred incubators in all of Kuwait at the time. NATO also spread lies about finding "video evidence" of Libyan Army soldiers raping women in Benghasi and other places. The International Criminal Court (what a laugh) dutifully exclaimed to the world that it was "investigating" these credible allegations - and wanted to arrest Gaddafi in connection with them. Turned out the video evidence were well known porno movies. The ICC has still not retracted it's foolish outburst.

by An Draighneán Donn Mon Sep 26, 2011 16:05

"1. This has been a thoroughgoing popular revolution. Tripoli was not liberated by outside rebels. Rather, a popular uprising started from within, on August 20, in a number of neighborhoods across the city. By midday on the 21st, the state security apparatus had been defeated completely in a number of neighborhoods, and was crumbling in others. By the evening of the 21st, the first brigades of rebels reached the city, and fought through the remaining strongholds."

Of course, nothing here about five months of NATO carpet bombing to "soften up" the population of Tripoli. I think someone who would leave out this rather glaring fact is a less than trustworthy witness. It also leaves out the fact that NATO was still bombing Tripoli for several days after the 21st, and that there is still fighting going on in Tripoli today. Besides that, Gaddafi armed the whole people of Tripoli - hardly the act of a "tyrant" afraid of his people. This writer should not confuse the people organising their own defense from Nato rats with the people overthrowing Gaddafi. Wouldn't you be surprised at the SWP wasting paper on such obvious Nato propaganda...

by WIT's Letter Mon Sep 26, 2011 16:11

"The driving force of the revolution in every crucial juncture has been mass participation, whether in the initial uprisings in Benghazi and the western city of Zintan, or in and around Tripoli."

If mass participation has been the "driving force," why, in every case, were thousands of tons of NATO explosives needed as the vanguard? Why did the people have to be softened up by the sight of their children being crushed by NATO bombing, by NATO depleted uranium and white phosphorus? Where is the mass participation in Sirte or Bani Walid? Why are these civilians being subjugated to day and night bombing by NATO? Is it to remind them that they really want to be ruled by the Nato rats? Again, I wonder, why the SWP gives a platform to such obvious and lying NATO shrills.

by An DD Mon Sep 26, 2011 16:15

"Today, the streets of Tripoli are ruled by ordinary people. Every neighborhood has a popular committee, consisting of armed locals. They control the entry and exit points to their neighborhood, check vehicles, and, in the absence of police forces (who have only just begun to return) act as the de facto authority on the street level."

Yes, thanks to Gadaffi's policies since 1977, and thanks to his arming of the whole population when Nato Nazis and their native rats started destroying Libya. As Gadaffi himself said recently, the Nato rats can never win, as power is in the hands of the armed people.

by An DD Mon Sep 26, 2011 16:18

As one Libyan friend told me, "Everything is upside down now."

The only true statement in the whole letter.

by Serf Mon Sep 26, 2011 18:51

yep, DD you are right. The evidence for those 1270 bodies is flaky. Nothing is as it seems in Libya apparently.
What about evidence gadaffi collaborated on torture with US?

by Liege Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:33

That may not be the exact resting place of those who were massacred at the prison but are you saying that it never took place?

by An DD Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:33

Unfortunately, Gaddafi may well have collaborated with war criminals such as Bush, Obama and Blair in the kidnapping and torture of individuals. But, looking what some of these same individuals have done to Libya, perhaps its a pity that he didn't deal more permanently with these miscreants.

by An DD Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:37

Do you have any evidence at all that any such a massacre took place? Beyond the claims of people who have tried to pass off porno movies as "evidence" that the Libyan Military was raping women (ridiculous claims the the ICC allowed itself to be duped by.)

by Liege Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:38

That looks very like support for torture and murder of prisoners.

by An DD Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:41

Sometimes its better to stop a few traitors, than allow them to destroy a whole nation and reduce its people to slavery.

by Liege Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:45

Here an Amnesty statement issued long before any uprising in Libya.

LIBYA URGED TO THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATE 1996 MASS PRISON KILLINGS

The families of the victims have repeatedly called on the authorities to reveal the truth

29 June 2010
Amnesty International has called on the Libyan government to thoroughly investigate the killing of up to 1,200 inmates of Abu Salim Prison in Tripoli on 29 June 1996, to bring those responsible to justice and to provide adequate reparation for families.

The Libyan authorities, who only acknowledged in 2004 that any disturbances had occurred at all, have claimed that the deaths took place during an exchange of fire between guards and prisoners following an escape attempt.

However, former prisoners say guards fired indiscriminately at prisoners who were out of their cells during a riot sparked by appalling prison conditions on 28 June. The next morning there was an explosion and shooting was heard for about two hours,former prisoners say.

Colonel Mu'ammar al-Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, described the incident as a "tragedy" in 2004 to an Amnesty International delegation visiting the country.

Since 2008, the families of the victims have repeatedly called on the authorities to reveal the truth about why their relatives were killed.

"Rather than trying to silence the families of the victims and keep the truth about the Abu Salim killings a state secret, the Libyan government must end the years of uncertainty and pain, conduct a thorough, independent investigation and bring those responsible to account," said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International’s director for the Middle East and North Africa.

"The authorities must publish a full list of those killed in Abu Salim Prison in June 1996 and of others who have died in custody as a result of torture or other abuses,"

"Families of the victims should be provided with accurate death certificates stating the place, date and exact cause of death; the ones they are receiving now do not shed light on the circumstances of the killings."
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/libya...06-29

by Liege Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:47

So US torture and murder of prisoners is wrong but Libyan torture and murder of prisoners is ok? Have you any idea how this sounds to ordinary readers of Indymedia? You are bringing the Anti-Imperialist cause into disrepute.

by An DD Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:52

I doubt if you have any sympathy for the anti-imperialist cause.

by Liege Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:57

Yes I have. You really have no idea of the damage that you are doing. You only see one true church of of Anti-Imperialism with yourself as its Pope. I doubt if you have ever worked in an anti-war campaign in the real world. Your sort of intolerance and arrogance would not be tolerated.

People of different opinions come together to fight Imperialism, if one person abuses everyone else because he disagrees with them then he is shown the door. Serious people accept differences to fight against the main enemy.

by An DD Tue Sep 27, 2011 13:02

Those who have really taken on imperialism in the world - such as Mao Zedung, Ho Chi Minh, Che Guevara, Tom Barry and Francis Hughes - didn't sit around in seomra spraoi listening to politically correct music and eating vegan dishes, and going to the odd demo outside the Israeli embassy.

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Sep 27, 2011 13:04

And Muammar Gaddafi will go down in history as one of the greatest of all anti-imperialist fighters and supporters of anti-imperialist struggle - not least here in Ireland.

by Liege Tue Sep 27, 2011 13:14

Those who have really taken on imperialism in the world - such as Mao Zedung, Ho Chi Minh, Che Guevara, Tom Barry and Francis Hughes - didn't sit around in seomra spraoi listening to politically correct music and eating vegan dishes, and going to the odd demo outside the Israeli embassy.

You really have a high opinion of yourself if you compare yourself to the above.

The rest of us carry out the day to day drudgery of postering, leaflets, meetings and demos. Communicating with ordinary people about what Imperialism really is.

by Liege Tue Sep 27, 2011 13:43

This is written by Andy Worthington. He has written books: The Guantánamo Files and Outside the Law: Stories from Guantánamo. I think this should make his opinions credible. He opposes the murder and torture of all prisoners.

The Abu Salim prison massacre, June 29, 1996

In an account of the massacre published in 2007, an eye-witness to the events began by explaining that the Abu Salim prison in Tripoli (also known as Abu Saleem), where the massacre took place (and where the CIA’s most notorious “ghost prisoner,” Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, recently died in mysterious circumstances), had been overcrowded for eight years before the massacre took place, after “Islamic groups became more politically active and faced a brutal, large-scale crackdown from the various Security apparatuses.” The witness explained that, in 1996, the prison held between 1,600 and 1,700 prisoners, even though there were just 112 cells, and that, in addition to the overcrowding, prisoners were forced to endure “unsanitary conditions, scarcity of food, lack of any medical attention, and inhumane treatment by the guards.”

Conditions at the prison apparently grew worse after a number of prison breaks in 1995 and early 1996. As the witness explained,

All visitations were cancelled, and all prisoners’ belongings, including clothes, were confiscated. Prisoners were allowed to have nothing more than their prison uniforms, mats to sleep on and two blankets … Penalties increased, prisoners were beaten every time they walked out to get their meals, quality of food, when available, deteriorated even further, garbage was not removed, and prisoners were forced to live with backed-up and overflowing sewers. The difference between life and death became very blurry. Many attempts were made to meet with the warden to discuss these conditions to no avail. At that point some of the prisoners decided to try a different method; they decided to protest.

According to the eye-witness, and to Hussein al-Shafa’i, another eye-witness interviewed by Human Rights Watch in 2004 and 2006, the events leading up to the massacre began sometime between 4.30 and 4.40 pm on June 28, when prisoners in one cell overpowered a guard — “push[ing] him from behind [so that] he fell hard on his face, hitting the concrete floor” — and immediately set about liberating other prisoners. Within a short amount of time, according to al-Shafa’i, who was held in Abu Salim from 1988 to 2000, and who was working in the prison’s kitchen at the time, hundreds of prisoners from three of the prison’s eight cell blocks had been set free, but as they emerged into the prison’s courtyard, guards on the roof began shooting. According to both witnesses, 17 prisoners were either wounded or killed as a result.

Within half an hour, as al-Shafa’i described it, senior security officials and “a contingent of security personnel” arrived at the prison. Negotiations then took place, and, according to al-Shafa’i, “who said he observed and overheard the negotiations from the kitchen, the prisoners asked … for clean clothes, outside recreation, better medical care, family visits, and the right to have their cases heard before a court, because many of the prisoners were in prison without trial.” One of the officials, Abdullah Sanussi, who is married to the sister of Gaddafi’s wife, “said he would address the physical conditions, but the prisoners had to return to their cells” and release two hostages they had taken. One was released, but the other, mentioned above, had died from his injuries.

As al-Shafa’i described it, security personnel then “took the bodies of those killed and sent the wounded for medical care.” He added that “[a]bout 120 other sick prisoners boarded three buses, ostensibly to go to the hospital,” although “he saw the buses take the prisoners to the back of the prison.” The other eye-witness had a slightly different explanation. He said that

Those who were accused of belonging to opposition groups were ordered to get off the buses. All others were taken outside the prison section to a different part of the compound. They were lined up and shot, execution-style, by young conscripts whose choices were shoot, or stand with them to be shot. This was later reported by an officer, who defied orders that night and was able to escape.

Around 5 o’clock the following morning, according to al-Shafa’i, “security forces moved some of the prisoners between the civilian and military sections of the prison,” and by 9 am “they had forced hundreds of prisoners from blocks 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 into different courtyards. They moved the low-security prisoners in block 2 to the military section and kept the prisoners in blocks 7 and 8, with individual cells, inside.”

Again, the other eye-witness had a slightly different explanation. He said that the prisoners in cell block 2, “and all other prisoners accused of opposition activities were taken out of their cells and into the courtyard,” and that “[t]he same happened to cell blocks 1, 3, 4, 5, 6,” and added that the prisoners in blocks 7 and 8 — who numbered approximately 60 prisoners — were not removed because their “cell locks could not be broken.”

Both eye-witnesses, however, agreed on what happened next. In al-Shafa’i’s words, “At 11:00 a grenade was thrown into one of the courtyards. I did not see who threw it but I am sure it was a grenade. I heard an explosion and right after a constant shooting started from heavy weapons and Kalashnikovs from the top of the roofs. The shooting continued from 11:00 until 1:35.” He added that it was a “special unit” of six men that conducted the massacre, and that, at 2 pm, the forces used pistols to “finish off those who were not dead.”

Al-Shafa’i also said that the security forces killed “around 1,200 people,” explaining, as Human Rights Watch put it, that he “calculated this figure by counting the number of meals he prepared prior to and after the incident.”

He added that, the following day, “security forces removed the bodies with wheelbarrows” and “threw the bodies into trenches — 2 to 3 meters deep, one meter wide and about 100 meters long — that had been dug for a new wall.” He also said, “I was asked by the prison guards to wash the watches that were taken from the bodies of the dead prisoners and were covered in blood.”

The other witness largely corroborated this explanation. He put the number of the dead at 1,170, and also explained that looting of the corpses had taken place. “Most of the guards rushed to strip the dead bodies of their watches, rings, glasses, and search their pockets,” he wrote. “They took everything they could find. They also confiscated all the clothes, blankets, radios, which belonged to the dead, and divided them among themselves. The warden’s share was all the fans, space heaters, and other electronic devices. He then sold these items to his guards, who in turn sold them to prisoners brought in after 1996.”

However, the witness disputed Hussein al-Shafa’i’s claim that the bodies had been buried in the prison. “The bodies could easily be discovered within the compound,” he wrote, adding, “The regime is too smart to implicate itself.” According to his version of events, two refrigerated trucks — one belonging to the Meat Transportation Company, the other to the Marine Fisheries Company — took corpses away on two successive days, and on the third, when, “because of the sun and the heat, the stench of the corpses became unbearable,” a large container was brought instead, “and they used a forklift to load the remaining corpses into the container.” He added, “This continued through Tuesday, but the stench persisted despite the disinfectants and chemicals they used inside and outside the prison. Residents of the Abu Salim district know and remember this well.” ...

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/30/uk-protesto...acre/

by An DD Tue Sep 27, 2011 13:48

Hopefully we will see you on the first of October at the Anti-Internment march, 2pm from the Garden of Remembrance. I'm sure you agree that we have a duty to fight imperialism in our own country first. As Comrade Mao put it: In wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism

by An DD Tue Sep 27, 2011 14:04

Given the obvious talent that the Nato rebels have shown for concocting the most fantastic lies, and given the willful gullibility of the Western media, I would say that most thinking people would want some kind of concrete evidence before they accept that any such massacre took place. All Worthington seems to have found is people will to tell him these stories.

We would have to ask ourselves: Would a regime as brutal as this leave any witnesses alive? Probably not. If the Libyan government was so brutal, would Abdul Hakim Belhadj be still alive today, and terrorizing people in Tripoli?

by Serf Tue Sep 27, 2011 18:55

Not saying massacre never took place. Just that the CNN report was flaky. I thought it might be part of the attempts to cover up killings by the NTC while blaming Gadaffi, or maybe a convenient bit of well timed anti Gadaffi propaganda. Who knows? It's hard to know whether to believe anything coming out of Libya anymore. Even Al Jazeera has been totally compromised.

I do believe Gadaffi, for a so called direct democrat, bought shitloads of weapons , squirrelled away billions of Libyan oil money for himself and he tortured people with the US. So he is capable of all that. Small step to sanctioning or covering up the killing of a bunch of annoying prisoners. But the truth is I don't really know what else to believe about Gadaffi or Libya right now except that NATO went well beyond its remit to create a no fly zone and that the invasion was likely just an extension of western resource wars. And I do know that 30,000 > 1270 and those deaths are certainly far from the end of the killing in Libya.

It seems to me that while cheerleading our invasions, nobody in the western media or the public ever does the basic maths about dicktators. So often the evil dicktator we replace (as in the case of Sadaam Hussein) would take hundreds of years to kill, maim and displace as many people as our sanctions and our self motivated military attempts to oust him do and he would not destroy the entire infrastructure of the country in question while doing so and in practice he would probably have died of excess within 20 years of the invasion anyway without anyone actually lifting a finger. (mummars jowls are distinctly unhealthy looking and saddams mars bar addiction was a heart attack in waiting! ;-)

by pat c Tue Sep 27, 2011 19:16

Well it looks as if a lot of reputable people believe that the massacre took place. Amnesty and others have built up detailed dossiers on what happened. Its not just idle gosip.

On another point I'll track down the original socialistworker.org article that the TRipoli based correspondent responded to. Whatever about the rights or wrongs of his article, socialistworker.org are a serious bunch and would have satisfied themselves that he was actualy based in Libya.

by pat c Tue Sep 27, 2011 19:23

The article which the Tripoli correspondent was criticising.

Who really won in Libya?

Another dictator is being toppled in North Africa--but the regime that will replace his will be beholden to imperialist powers that don't care at all about democracy.

August 23, 2011

A Libyan rebel in Zawiyah guards an unexploded NATO bomb (Etienne De Malglaive | ABACA Press)A Libyan rebel in Zawiyah guards an unexploded NATO bomb (Etienne De Malglaive | ABACA Press)

THE REIGN of Libyan dictator Muammar el-Qaddafi seems to be coming to an end after anti-government fighters backed by NATO forces took control of Tripoli.

After months of a military stalemate, the fall of the Libyan capital came with remarkable speed. As this article was being written, Qaddafi had not been captured, and there were still reports of fighting in Tripoli. But while the situation might remain unclear for some time, the main question now is not if, but when. [Update: On the day of publication, heavier fighting broke out in Tripoli, leaving more doubt about how long the pro-Qaddafi side could hold out.]

Masses of Libyans celebrated in Tripoli and around the country as the regime's control of its last stronghold seemed to give way, and they will again when Qaddafi is definitively toppled. Qaddafi is a despised dictator who ruled Libya with an iron fist for more than 40 years, squelching dissent while enriching his family and the small circle around it. His rule continued whether he was seen by the West as an enemy to be demonized--or as a valued ally in the "war on terror."

Hatred of the dictatorship and a thirst for democracy and freedom drove the uprising against Qaddafi when it first arose in February, clearly inspired by the revolutions against tyrants in Tunisia to Libya's west, and Egypt to its east.

But the character of Libya's uprising has been twisted and transformed in the months since.

The rebel forces that took over Tripoli this week operated in collaboration with U.S.-led NATO military forces that have no interest at all in Libyans' desire for freedom. As Independent journalist Patrick Cockburn predicted some months ago, the fall of Tripoli and Qaddafi's regime will be "primarily won by NATO, and not popular revolution."

Last March, the United Nations sanctioned a U.S.-led air campaign in Libya, with the justification that this was the only way to stop Qaddafi's military from committing a massacre against the uprising. But the air war continued and escalated. Meanwhile, Western governments were reshaping the anti-Qaddafi opposition to fit their needs--like ensuring the flow of oil from Libya for one, and even more importantly, creating a reliably pro-Western barrier against the tide of revolution that has swept through the region.

To do this, the U.S. and its European allies backed the most conservative elements among those who claimed to lead the struggle against Qaddafi. A few were already on the CIA payroll--others were former officials of the Qaddafi regime who decided to switch sides.

The new government that will form in place of the Qaddafi regime will be led by these elements. It will be beholden to the U.S. and Europe for its existence--and pliable to their interests.

No one who cares about justice will shed a tear for Muammar el-Qaddafi. He was a tyrant, with the blood of many people on his hands. But no one who opposes imperialism and its crimes can celebrate Qaddafi's downfall in these circumstances.

The new government that will come to power in Libya won't answer to the people of Libya and their desire for democracy and justice. It will answer to imperialism--and that is a blow to the Arab Spring, which this year showed the world the hope of an alternative to oppression, violence and tyranny.

Continued at: http://socialistworker.org/2011/08/23/who-really-won-in...libya

by pat c Tue Sep 27, 2011 19:32

Another interesting article draws the connections between Libya and Palestine.

Obama's hypocrisy on the Middle East

September 27, 2011

A DEAFENING silence after Barack Obama's United Nations speech. And no wonder.

The long history of unmitigated hypocrisy in U.S. Middle East policy easily silences even a master rhetorician. First, there was Operation Iraq Liberation (OIL, for empire past), most lately followed by Operation Independent Libya (OIL. for empire present).

In between, there are demands for democracy in Bahrain, Yemen and Jordan, but Bahrain is the home port of the U.S. Fifth Fleet, waiting to pop across the Persian Gulf for Operation Iran Liberation (OIL, for empire yet to come), so negotiation--not NATO bombing--is the order of the day. Kingdoms and autocracies are not democratic, but their abuses are overlooked if they are oil rich (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait) or if they are U.S. toadies (Jordan, Yemen).

Thousands have been murdered in the streets in Syria, but oil resources are minor and the Israeli occupation of Syrian Golan has become virtually permanent, so economic sanctions and patience are the order of the day. Sorry, Syrians! No help with democracy for you. Afghanis, bad luck for you, too, because your homeland is where the "good war" is being fought.

Switching the focus from Iraq to Afghanistan won the hearts--or at least the embarrassed silence--of liberals and most of all helped cinch the election of Obama in 2008. Losing a toady in Egypt was a blow, but Washington is working hard to manage the situation and keep the level of democracy confined to managed elections, a la Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lastly, there is Palestine. Here more than anywhere, Obama has gone from merely embracing the rotting corpse of U.S. hypocrisy to becoming its greatest cheerleader.

In front of the whole world he was actually able to tell the Palestinians to come to the negotiating table to endure yet more decades of lies, humiliation and oppression as their land and water are stolen, day by day, demolition by demolition, and settlement by settlement funded by the USA--including Israel bonds owned by the state of Minnesota.

It's all unraveling, Mr. Obama. It's clear to the world more than ever that your words mean nothing. You are nothing more than the latest in a long line of servile managers of the security state. Some courageous action on your part was still possible to salvage a legacy, but given your obsession with being reelected at any cost, we can expect the pandering to wealth and power to continue unabated.

Alternatives will have to come from the streets. They have and they will.

by Serf Tue Sep 27, 2011 20:41

both interesting posts P.C. I'd go along with much of that. Helena sheehans post would also give weight to statements that Gadaffi was somewhat of a tyrant. I don't think thats really much in dispute. Just that MS media statements coming from Libya cannot be trusted. And whether what will replace him will actually be much better or not. Judging by history I'd say probably not.
Sectarian killings will be rife. Weapons will be everywhere. Infrastructure will not be properly rebuilt. Corruption will become rife. Religious differences will be used in a divide and conquer fashion while all the while foreign private oil interests will be served and Libya will fall into debt to foreign banks and living standards will fall through the floor for ordinary people. Look to Iraq for a likely blueprint. This is only the beginning of the train wreck.

by pat c Tue Sep 27, 2011 20:56

I fear that you are right about sectarian killing. The SW article puts it very wel, Gadaffi was a dictator but no socialist would want to see hum overthrown in this manner.

I know we have to treat the msm with caution but we have to get our information from somewhere. Look at 24.com it had both pro and anti rebel articles. Combine the msm (esp articles by Fisk and Pilger) with articles from the left who oppose NATO intervention.

by An Draighneán Donn Wed Sep 28, 2011 14:29

Anyone who wants to inform themselves on the criminal methods of NATO and its Bilderberg string pullers should have a look at this website:

http://imperialtwilight.wordpress.com/

by An DD Wed Sep 28, 2011 14:44

UN Sanctioning Sovereign Nations, We the People Sanctioning the Global Elite: Time to cut them off from humanity.

Tony Cartalucci

The first step in destroying an entrenched enemy is to cut them off from the rest of the world. The globalists of NATO, the US, UK, France, Qatar, and others, have illustrated this principle in Libya on several levels. First they cut off the nation of Libya from the outside world, putting arms and trade embargoes on the Libyan government, blockading their shores, and seizing control of their airspace. As Benghazi’s Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) terror brigades swept across the country under NATO cover, raping, murdering, and brutalizing all in their path, the globalists began organizing the surrounding and cutting off of individual Libyan cities, allowing (and assisting) rebels in cutting off food, medical supplies, cooking gas, electricity, and unimaginably even water, literally to starve the populations into submission. While the people of Libya have shown immense resolve against this strategy, it is only because of the incompetence of NATO and the lack of fortitude, character, or any desirable human quality amongst the rebels that this process of isolating and besieging the Libyan people has failed.

Full article:

http://libya360.wordpress.com/2011/09/28/libya-sanction...nity/

by An Draigneán Donn Wed Sep 28, 2011 14:52

TO THE BRAVE PEOPLE OF BANI WALID

By your righteousness you have been granted the courage and the heroism to perform great and honourable deeds for the liberation of Libya.

You honor your ancestors.

You must know that I am in the battlefield by your side.

They lie and say that Gaddafi is in Venezuela, in Niger.

I am in the midst of my people.

In the following days we will deliver an unexpected shock to this gang of traitors and foreign agents.

Heroes have resisted and fallen as martyrs and we also expect martyrdom.

http://libya360.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/message-from-m...2011/

by An Draighneán Donn Fri Sep 30, 2011 19:17

CIA-NATO Headquarters Raided, Green Flag Flying

On Wednesday 28th, mass demonstrations took place in Tripoli in favor of people's power (jamahiriya) and the African Muslim revolutionary leader Muammar Qaddafi, liberator of humanity, author of The Green Book, advocate of the Third Universal Theory.

The masses demonstrated against the terrorist mercenary foreign armed forces which have been occupying key areas of Tripoli since 5 weeks after massive non-stop bombing and missile attacks by the world's strongest military forces, 40 countries which are bankrupt, including USA, Canada, England, France, and most of Europe.

Full article:

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=628847

by An Draighneán Donn Fri Sep 30, 2011 19:26

Khamis al-Gaddafi speaks to his noble comrades. They look in good spirits, God bless them. These are the heroes in the front line in the battle for humanity and dignity in the face of Bilderberg terror and greed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FRVbdw2qS4&feature=play...edded

by An DD Fri Sep 30, 2011 19:49

Libya: “the jewel in the crown”
30 September 2011

In a recent teleconference with US businessmen, Washington’s ambassador to Libya let slip a telling phrase while referring to the North African nation’s oil reserves.

Ambassador Gene Cretz, who recently ran the stars and stripes up the flagpole at the previously abandoned US embassy in Tripoli recounted to reporters the contents of the briefing he delivered to representatives of some 150 American businessmen. Joining him in the presentation was Assistant Secretary for Economic, Energy and Business Affairs Jose Fernandez, the State Department’s point-man on pursuing US corporate—and particularly oil—interests abroad. The agency has also played a leading role in seeking US investments in Iraq.

“We know that oil is the jewel in the crown of Libyan natural resources, but even in Gaddafi’s time they were starting from A to Z in terms of building infrastructure and other things,” said Cretz.

The US ambassador continued: “If we can get American companies here on a fairly big scale, which we will try to do everything we can to do that, then this will redound to improve the situation in the United States with respect to our own jobs.”

The “jewel in the crown” is a phrase that is drenched in the history and ideology of imperialism. First employed in the 19th century by the British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, it referred to India and its position as the most lucrative source of profits extracted by British imperialism from its worldwide colonial possessions.

That such language creeps into the official briefings of the chief US representative in Tripoli is hardly accidental. It expresses the rapacious aims pursued by American imperialism and its NATO allies, particularly Britain and France, since the outset of a war waged on the phony pretense of “human rights” and protecting civilians.

Full article:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/sep2011/pers-s30.shtml

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Sun Oct 02, 2011 13:41

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26848

by An DD Mon Oct 03, 2011 15:49

An excellent analysis of the disposition of forces in Libya today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXHFqIuK7lk

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Oct 04, 2011 14:57

WSWS, October 3, 2011

NATO countries led by the US, Britain, and France are committing terrible war crimes in the Libyan city of Sirte. In their frenzied drive to crush all remaining resistance in the North African state, NATO and its proxy militia forces aligned with the National Transitional Council are unleashing indiscriminate military force, killing civilians and destroying buildings and infrastructure throughout the urban centre.

Numerous civilian refugees who have managed to escape the siege have reported seeing schools, hospitals, homes, and other civilian buildings destroyed by NATO bombs. Air raids are now taking place around the clock. Anti-Gaddafi militiamen are firing rockets, mortar rounds and tank shells, without even pretending that they are aiming at any particular targets within the city of 100,000 people. Sirte is suffering from severe shortages of food, water and medicine supplies, further fuelling the humanitarian crisis. Children, the elderly and other vulnerable people are especially affected.

Full article:

http://uruknet.info/?p=m81985&hd=&size=1&l=e

by An Draigneán Donn Tue Oct 04, 2011 15:22

More information on the genocidal war crimes being committed by NATO in Sirte and Bani Walid:

http://libya360.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/ntc-blocking-h...irte/

by An Draighneán Donn Tue Oct 04, 2011 15:25

Even the BBC has to admit that the firing into Sirte is entirely indiscriminate:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15150144

by The truth will set you free Thu Oct 06, 2011 21:56

Incredible to read comments here based on the Independent (?) and the rest of mass media lies about the alleged massacre in Abu Salim. We who are on the antiimperialist camp should be much more cautious and research and double check the oppressors fabricated lies.

These are two great articles that I've found about this issue:

http://empirestrikesblack.com/2011/09/exposed-the-abu-s...raud/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26848

by An Draighneán Donn Fri Oct 07, 2011 01:30

According to a Russian Intelligence Operative who is observing the situation in Libya closely, yesterday warriors of the Tuareg tribe gave a demonstration of their special desert warfare skills. The Russian Intelligence source revealed to Stalinist Live Journal, that intercepted NATO communications revealed that two AV-8B Harrier II and two Eurofighter jets from the Italian Carrier Garibaldi Guiseppe were searching in vain for the cause of the destruction of 35 tanks and armored personnel carriers. The destruction of the targets with 5 minutes interval was interpreted as a sign of an attack from the air, though no radar nor infrared signatures could be found. A close inspection of the destroyed vehicles revealed the remains of French made anti tank mines, which according to the same intelligence source had been placed under the vehicles by Tuareg warriors, who are experts in desert stealth guerrilla warfare.
Tonight nsnbc received intelligence that what remains of the TNC after 90% of it´s members left remains in utter chaos. The Libyan Youth movement, which recently declared war on the TNC has begun an assassination campaign of persons cooperating with the TNC and Abdelhakim Belhadj´s Tripoli Military Counsel aka Libyan Islamic Fighting Group. Yesterday a judge, responsible for harsh sentences against captured military officers loyal to the legitimate Libyan Government was murdered in his home. The home of the judge is in one of the “safest” most heavily guarded districts of Tripoli, only a few hundred meters away from the Royal Danish Embassy.
At a press conference this morning, Abdelhakim Belhadj was pleading to the residents of Tripoli to surrender their weapons so the Tripoli Military Counsel aka Libyan Islamic Fighting Group could establish “law and order” as the basis for taking steps towards building democratic institutions. Desperate words, considering that it is not long ago that the TNC promised ” Democracy Within 20 Month´s “. With overwhelming likelihood his words will also be in vain, considering the precedence of “law and order” a la Belhadj the population has experienced. With over 90 % of the Libyan people opposed to the illegal occupation of their country, and increased military support from throughout Northern Africa, the best chance for establishing law and order would be for Belhadj, Jalil, Jibril and NATO to leave Libya. As to Syria, the establishment and massive backing up of the Syrian National Counsel after the last months of insurgency, sanctions and NATO backed unconventional warfare must raise red flags about where NATO´s next attacks are planned.
Dr. Christof Lehmann
04.10.2011

by An Draighneán Donn Fri Oct 07, 2011 02:16

While the Nato rats want to cover women up in the Burka, and put them back into the kitchen, Gaddafi armed and trained them for their own defense. Just to show the world that he was serious, he chose women to guard him - even though Nato was trying to assassinate him all the time. Of course, the rednecks in the West laughed about the "Amazonian Guards," as they could not comprehend the idea of women being equal, as soldiers, to men. In 1998, one woman guard was killed, and another seven injured, when Nato backed Al Qaeda assassins tried to murder Gaddafi. And yet, the brainless Western media laugh at these brave women and treat them as bimbos. God bless these valiant women. They are still by Gaddafi's side, protecting him. And they are not alone. Tens of thousands of Libyan women are joining the resistance against the Nato Al Qaeda alliance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-LS1pNPwMI&feature=related

by An DD Fri Oct 07, 2011 06:14

Anyone interested in the truth of whats happening in Libya, must watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qXRwBXK34o&feature=related

by An Draigneán Donn Fri Oct 07, 2011 16:23

Thank God, Muammar Gaddafi is well and in good spirits, and has addressed the Libyan people and anti-imperialists all over the world. Here is a brief summery - full translation to follow:

Shortwave broadcast (awaiting full translation) "I call on all Libyan people to go out and march in their millions in all the squares, in all the cities and villages and oases. Go peacefully. Be courageous, rise up, go to the streets, raise our green flags to the skies.
The NTC has no legitimacy because it was not nominated or appointed by the people. How did it get its legitimacy? Did the Libyan people elect them? Did the Libyan people appoint them? If the power of (international) fleets give legitimacy, then let the rulers in the Third World be ready. To those who recognize this council, be ready for the creation of transitional councils imposed by the power of fleets to replace you one by one from now on.
Bani Walid, Sirte, Warshfana and Nawhi, those four tribes are armed very well and they will never be defeated; those honorable people can not be subjected. All the people in Libya, all true Libyans will never surrender to the invaders and the colonizers.
We will fight for our freedom and we are willing to sacrifice more. The traitors and colonizers and NATO will be destroyed soon. They already no longer trust each other and they don't trust their leaders; the traitors are unable to continue because their basis is weak.
Even if you don't hear my voice, don't stop fighting. Fight on!"

Sound recording of full speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1PQJ9eRDFU&feature=play...edded

by An DD Fri Oct 07, 2011 18:28

YouTube removes VSMRK's "Truth on Libya" reporting account

Posted: 2011/10/07
From: Mathaba

Zionist controlled Google-YouTube has removed one of the few Truth on Libya accounts after it revealed the results of NATO bombings on Sirte hospital. Yet, what should we expect, and it is our fault, says Mathaba ICT News Editor.

HeyU Quality Ads

If you click at VSMRK's YouTube account address, as from today you'll get the following screen and message:

This account has been terminated due to repeated or severe violations of our Community Guidelines and/or claims of copyright infringement.

Those "severe violations" exist of videos which were uploaded on October 5 and which showed the results of the heavy NATO bombings on the hospital of Sirte which has been repeatedly hit over the past few days during the indiscriminate bombardments on Libyan leader Gaddafi's hometown. The videos showed part of the hospital being blackened by explosions and hit by bullets from the NATO-rebel forces as well as the numerous victims of the criminal NATO bombing and shelling, and included the following descriptions:

Red Cross reported that NATO Mercenaries were directly attacking Sirte hospital, Hichem Khadhraoui said that "Several rockets landed within the hospital buildings while we were there. We saw a lot of indiscriminate fire At the same time, NATO is stopping civilians from reaching the hospital by bombing roads, residential areas, causing hundreds of wounded civilians to die in the process. Khadhraoui reported that "other wounded or ill people cannot get to the hospital because of the fighting and NATO air strikes".

and (quoting Libya's spokesman Moussa Ibrahim who visited Sirte on September 26):

The hospital already had stopped working altogether because there is little water, the hospital lacks food and any sort of electricity, it lacks medicine and lots of medical equipment has stopped working. Above that the sewage system of Sirte stopped working so many streets are flooded at the moment, which is of course a ripe environment for diseases,

and a reference was made to the World Socialist Web Site article The slaughter in Sirte.

Full article:

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=628901

by An Draighneán Donn Sun Oct 09, 2011 21:22

How the Nato oil pirates funded and trained Islamic groups in Libya, and staged a fake "rebellion" using Nato firepower:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmlVmxWwb60&feature=related

by An Draighneán Donn Mon Oct 10, 2011 02:25

A fantastic video, that shows the reality of who is the real paranoid dictator - Obama or Gaddafi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG_ecEJZWdY&feature=related

by An Draighnean Donn Mon Oct 10, 2011 03:52

Anders Fogh Rasmussen proclaims War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3-aknVrYw

The Nazi Rassmussen is attacked by a righteous protestor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qgtnk15L80

by An Draighnean Donn Wed Oct 12, 2011 03:25

In complete contrast to the Nato rats, this is the voice of a genuine hero:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW7e_Pkc20A

by An Draighneán Donn Wed Oct 12, 2011 03:44

A nice piece of animation, which sums up the vile nature of Nato's destruction of Libya:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1deq-MgVU4&feature=related

by An Draigneán Donn Wed Oct 12, 2011 23:06

LIBYA Breaking News 10.Oct 2011: Actual Facts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSxzvyDDwQo

IEA's Fyfe Says Talk of Libyan Oil Recovery 'Premature'

(Subtext: the Patriotic Resistance to Nato Oil Pirates is still strong and likely to remain so.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2VskS_0Nro

by An Draighneán Donn Wed Oct 12, 2011 23:09

Lizzy Phelan is one of the rarest creatures in the world - an honest jounalist. This is her account of what she saw in Libya:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPDfJVngAXM

by An Draighneán Donn Wed Oct 12, 2011 23:25

US Professor Alan Kuperman demolishes Obama's lies with forensic facts and figures:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNuN3nLt1N0&feature=related

by An Draighneán Donn Wed Oct 12, 2011 23:45

Like the Communist Party of Ireland, the Communist Party of Great Britain has spoken out against the Nato genocide of the Libyan people. It makes it clear that Libya is the front line in the war against imperialism. If you are not on the side of the Libyan resistance, you are on the side of Nato Nazi imperialism:

The fence has been burned:

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&su...t=757

by FFS Thu Oct 13, 2011 00:33

It was utterly predictable that the war in Libya would not be over even if Gaddhafi would be pushed away. The various fractions of the rebels could always be expected to start fighting over the loot. Frankly - why shouldn't they? This is happening now and NATO is preparing to go into Libya to clean up the mess the three stooges, Obama, Sarkozy and Cameron, created.

Nato officials are also concerned that fighting could break out among the factions that brought down Gaddafi's regime.
They believe the alliance would be under an obligation to intervene under the terms of its UN mandate to protect the Libyan population.

"If it degenerates into a big fight between factions, we will have to take action," a senior official said.
"If the scale and scope is of an order that justifies Nato intervention, we will ." - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/05/nato-debate...rvene

The situation is of course already degenerating and there is already fighting between various rebel factions. But a multisided civil war situation like this can not be refereed from the air. To intervene here means ground troops and a lot of them. Those will then be, as in Afghanistan, just another faction in an ever widening civil war.

Remember what happened after they did this in Iraq?

Libya's new government is setting up a security agency whose main task would be to root out those who remain loyal to deposed leader Muammar Gaddafi in towns and cities it now controls.

Ahmed al Dharrat, Libya's new interim internal affairs minister, told Reuters the new agency would replace a much-feared security service which ruled the North African nation through fear and arrests throughout Gaddafi's 42 years in power.
"Regarding internal security, there has been an order to abolish it. And we are studying a way of creating a body," al Dharrat said in an interview http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/06/us-libya-secu...11006

In Tripoli - people from Ziltan versus the LIFG:

An NTC spokesman who did not want to be named because he is not allowed to speak to the media about the incident told CNN "immediately after the journalist left the area, members of the rival Zintan-based Kekaa militia surrounded members of the Tripoli Brigade and stopped them from leaving."
"They had issued an arrest warrant from the Zintan Military Council for Belhaj and his deputy," the NTC spokesman added. . . . . More members from the Tripoli Brigade based in Metiga airport arrived in pickup trucks armed with heavy artillery and surrounded the Kekaa Brigades and "convinced" them to leave after accusations were exchanged between the two groups and tension that may have escalated to fighting, the spokesman said.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/05/world/africa/libya-an...ions/

In the South - Berbers versus Arabs:

Berbers from Nalut and Arabs from nearby Seaan clashed Saturday with Kalashnikov rifles and machine guns in the Nefusa mountains. A family of three caught in the crossfire was killed in the incident, Ahmed Hussein who witnessed the incident, told CNN.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/05/world/africa/libya-an...ions/

Tripoli - lot of loyalist who will not stay silent:

"I am a Gadhafi loyalist. I want Moammar. Some people are afraid to speak out, but I'm not," he says. "All I've known is Gadhafi. And I felt secure back then. There are many of us who feel the same way, but we are afraid to speak out because we might get beaten or shot." . . . . . By some estimates, up to 30 to 40 percent of the population in Libya remains sympathetic to Gadhafi.
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/06/141092142/gadhafi-may-be-...rters

Sirte - fighting to death:

For the grim truth is that this battered city, the last strategically important target for anti-Gaddafi forces, is home to elements who know there is no point in surrendering.
These men know that death is their only option. If they surrender they will tried and executed for so-called "blood crimes".
The rebels know it too.
http://news.scotsman.com/world/Rebels-play-a-long-game....66.jp

Near Sirte - Benghazis versus looters from Misurata

Fathi al-Shobash, an eastern revolutionary, said that when he tried to stop Misrata fighters from raiding homes, they would push him away and say this was their time to treat the Gadhadhfas the way they were treated by their leader. Gadhafi drew heavily on the Gadhadhfa and other loyalist tribes for his military and other key parts of his regime.
“I came to sincerely fight for freedom and my one goal is to rid Libya of Moammar Gadhafi,” said al-Shobash. “Why take it out on innocent people from his tribe?”
The tensions between east and west have begun to percolate on a national level as the interim government — set up by easterners — tries to solidify its authority after the fall of Tripoli and Gadhafi’s ouster in late August. Already, some in the west have rankled at what they see as attempts by easterners to dominate.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/libyan-....html

by An DD Fri Oct 14, 2011 07:51

Libya's armed Islamists vandalize Muslim graves as idolatrous

In yet another display of disunity between Libya's new conquerors there is a growing trend of grave desecration occurring. The interim head of the NTC denounced the practice on Tuesday, which is instigated by rebel fighters who adhere to Salafi Islam.
In post Gaddafi Libya intolerance is becoming the norm. The new wave of grave desecrations and vandalism is carried out by Muslims on Muslim graves, as proponents of Salafi Islamism vent their disapproval of the idolatrous nature of graves.

Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/312685#ixzz1ajhR8eJZ

by An Draighneán Donn Fri Oct 14, 2011 23:45

Pro-Jamahiriya protests in Tripoli were fired on today by Nato rat gangs, resulting in a gun battle that lasted several hours. The working Class area of Abu Salim is now being combed by Islamist gangs, who swear to "root out" all people who still support the government:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VPPp-ZzQJU&feature=play...edded

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15311520#story_c...ues_1

by me Sat Oct 15, 2011 13:36

which suggests that NATO is acting like the NAZIS did in Stalingrad in 1942

Nazi-like NATO destroys Sirte in Libya

Caption: Video Id: aCHlsXyoHj Type: Youtube Video
Latest news from Libyan -

by me Sat Oct 15, 2011 13:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCHlsXyoHjc&feature=play...dded#!

Caption: Video Id: aCHlsXyoHjc Type: Youtube Video
Latest News from Libya - NATO/"rebels" defeated in Ground-battles, by loyal Libyans

by me Mon Oct 17, 2011 03:25

Testimony of Libya - Lizzy Phelan - LIBYA ON WAR 11.10.11.flv

Caption: Video Id: Zqb6Q65AdKc Type: Youtube Video
Lizzie Phelam - the only person doing real Journalism in Libya

by Felix Quigley Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:47

“Libya - Sirte has been turned into a Modern day Stalingrad by NATO

 

which suggests that NATO is acting like the NAZIS did in Stalingrad in 1942”

writes a commenter on Indymedia (above)

 

According to the book called “Blowback” by Christopher Simpson the US Imperialists and their friends elsewhere, not least inside the Vatican, processed tens of thousands of Nazis post 1945, and integrated these into the CIA and into the West German Intelligence machine, as part of the “Cold War”.

According to William Engdahl this is carried into the present in the various colour revolutions in Ukraine, Georgia and many of these states, I would include also Tibet, but applies especially to what has been called the Arab “Spring”. Of course there is spontaneity since there is vast poverty and repression, but Engdahl is correct in pointing to the leadership being planned.Somewhere in this article and comments there is a suggestion that the people of Libya may still support Gadhafi to the tune of 40% and I do not think this is unrealistic, but it is still noteworthy considering the attempt of the international Media, the Arab League, the Muslim Brotherhood, to blacken the name of the Gadhafi family and support.

Despite political differences on the issue of his attitude to Israel and Zionism the fight of the Gadhafi family has been truly inspiring, standing up to the enormous might of NATO, the US, the British both Tory and Labour. I place this somewhere in the area of resistance showed by Milosevic in his best days, when he fought against all odds in The Hague Court and against the lies again of NATO and all of the above.

I think also of the Jews fighting against the might of the Romans, again against impossible odds, but the memory has continued. And it is not outlandish to place the resistance of Gadhafi in recent months on a level approaching the courage of Connolly, Pearce and the other Irish rebels in 1916.

The removal of Mubarak, engineered by Obama from everything he did and said in recent years, has greatly weakened the Israeli Jewish state. The growth of the Muslim Brotherhood in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya has also weakened the position of Israel versus Palestinism. (It appears that Hamas is being protected and preserved for what by the present US rulers and others)

If anybody says that Israel is involved in the NATO/MB war against Tunisia, Egypt or Libya then they should produce the evidence. Otherwise such claims are anti-Semitic lies.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Oct 17, 2011 13:43

Like many of the US clients was an aging busted flush they wanted replacing, and when the population gathered the courage to rise washington saddled its cavalry and has now copperfastened its militrary puppet, watching how the chips will fall.

I had some access to Wall St back in the seventies(sceal fada)and the head honchos in the Amex spent their time devising global scenarios of containment for all eventualities concievable by the hot shots at the corporate table(their secretaries did the exchange management, the system not needing much more than steady maintenance). They worked on 25, 50, 75 and 100 year projections and wargaming(not least psyops) and that was then, before the modern processor magnified their imaginative leverage. Thats without even considering the Pentagon/Langley axis.

Educate me on that MB. Military Brigade?

Yes, lotsa antisemitism mixed through the mess, but Israel is well wagging the dogs of war, on many fronts besides just NATO. They are designing a ME compliant to their hegemonic imperial grand ambitions. To not recognise that seems naive, at best, Zionist useful foolery at worst.

So dont be crediting(debiting?)Obama with things were in the pipe long before he landed. Its simplistic scapegoating that covers the arses of the background corporate strangeloves. Ye ol' invisible hand of ye ol' market.

by An Draighneán Donn Mon Oct 17, 2011 19:24

I agree fully that Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy are just Bilderberg houseboys.  The cost of becoming the "leader" of these countries is that you are never allowed to think for yourself again.  Your only function is to sell Bilderberg policies to the masses.

by wageslave Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:25

[mod note]

comments about syria moved here:

https://www.indymedia.ie/article/100687

please make any further comments about syria there.

thanks
wageslave

by Serf Thu Oct 20, 2011 14:47

It looks like Gadaffi has been killed in Sirte

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/20/us-libya-idUS...11020

judging by this report and reading between the lines, he was probably captured alive, wounded in the legs by a nato airstrike, then later shot in the head to avoid any embarrassing trials where he might spill the beans on his co-operation with the CIA etc.

It also sounds like there are a lot of gadaffi loyalist corpses in sirte.
No doubt slaughtered by gadaffi himself with a machete before the angelic rebels moved in.(some sarcasm here!)

Great. The "war" is over. Now the insurgency, sectarianism and total corruption begins and Nato gets to steal the oil and bankrupt the libyan people when rebuilding all the infrastructure they bombed to shit. Welcome to our version of democracy.

by ./. Thu Oct 20, 2011 17:57

Gadaffi was captured after being wounded. He was then shot in the neck. Summary execution, aka murder.
What were they afraid of that he might have said to the tribunal in the Hague?

by An Draigneán Donn Thu Oct 20, 2011 19:17

Remember that this story is coming from the Nato rat lynch mobs, who have lied since the start of this fake "rebellion."  Anyone with a brain will adopt an attitude of wait and see.  Certainly the rats have already put out two contradicting stories, and this video looks completely fake.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Thu Oct 20, 2011 19:40

.. is quite resigned to the ongoing pillage of Africa under the moral hubris of Europe, its nothing new.

The Libyans celebrating are the mercenary vultures of the same corporations convened in Berlin in 1878. Read Pakenham.
He was dispensed, as was saddam and osama, because he had the inside track on  his former handlers, you know them as well as opus does.

Visit Africa. Ask Africans. Dont take opus's word for nuttin. he's fulla shit.Now good night, and good luck. slan leat. Sleep tight. Dont let the drones bite.And keep swallowing the bullshit, it'll make you grow big and strong.

by Mike Tue Oct 25, 2011 02:07

Shame on America.

by Crazy Cat Tue Oct 25, 2011 13:01

An interview with Pepe Escobar